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FixedGearFever - :: View topic - weights before sprints
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:51 pm Post subject: weights before sprints
So I have recently started attempting some olympic lifts, only been able to do cleans so far. After a bunch of these, about 3 hours later I got on the bike for some sprints. I felt quite strong during warmup, kind of had that "no chain" feeling. And then I did my first sprint (5 second jump). I don't know how to really explain it other than that I simply felt more powerful than ever before and the powermeter supported this. I was astonished at how great I felt. But then the following sprints just didn't seem to have that great feel and power was lower.
I find this interesting because I usually perform the same throughout my workouts from begining to end. I think that the lifting I did earlier in the day 'opened' me up. Perhaps I was able to use the fast twitch muscle fibers I had previously not been able to recruit on days without lifting prior to the sprints? I just wish there was some way to keep that feeling I had during that first sprint. Maybe I need more than 5-10 minutes between sprints?
There are some days where I don't lift before riding, and it seems like I just can't fully recruit all my muscles during sprints.
Has anyone else had simular experiences with weights before riding?
Sorry can't recall where I heard it (possibly Charles Poliquin or Charlie Francis) but this approach has been tried and recommended before. Something to do with priming the Central Nervous System???
I did the same again today, with even better results. new personal bests in peak, 5sec and 10 second power. Although that could also be a result of my training paying off.
I think the key is keeping the volume extremely low, like nothing more than a couple singles. I suppose it has it's place, but not something you want to do before every training session, or it might loose it's effectiveness.
Did you do any timed kilo's last year? How about 200m's? And did you lift all season last year (apparently you did this year).
Reason I ask is it would be interesting to see your time changes. I lifted, including olympic lifts, but then quit pretty much cold-turkey in March. Be interesting to see if continuing to lift helped you or hurt you....did you do points racing and crits this year too - while weight training?
jb1566 •wrote• Did you do any timed kilo's last year? How about 200m's? And did you lift all season last year (apparently you did this year).
Reason I ask is it would be interesting to see your time changes. I lifted, including olympic lifts, but then quit pretty much cold-turkey in March. Be interesting to see if continuing to lift helped you or hurt you....did you do points racing and crits this year too - while weight training?
James B.
I am only doing road training, no track racing yet. So I don't have any real kilo or 200m times. As far as olympic lifts, I just started 'trying' them, but the only thing I can do so far is high pulls (basically an explosive deadlift for height) I did however start the normal lifts (squat, dead, step up, upper body stuff) at the end of June this year. This past spring I had spent the entire time doing road endurance training, no real sprint training. But I switch to pure sprinting at the end of June. Over the past 10 weeks I have made some real progress, like a 300watt increase in 5 and 10 and 20 second power.
I would recommend that you continue the lifting, particularly the olympic lifts during the race season, just keep the volume low. Add them to end of your bike workouts. Or in the case of this thread, do a couple before to prime your CNS. Whatever you do, do not try do body building type lifting aimed at hypertrophy during the race season, you will be too sore.
Joea •wrote• Adding strength training to the end of workouts is basically wasting time and adding significantly to the possibility of injury and overtraining.
Nothing like throwing up weight on already fatigued muscles................
That's funny, because after yesterday's 2hr sprint workout (where I did personal best power for peak, 5s and 10s) I came home did 2x15 full squats, followed by some jumping, then I did max deadlift singles (where I pulled 30lbs more than my previous best), I then did some more jumps for vertical height, and surprise surprise, I reached a new best height.
But maybe my improvement was inspite of my bad training methods, perhaps I could have done even better had I did the correct training (which, I have realized is only possible by hiring a coach, because obviously there is next to zero info out there on how a sprint cyclist should train) I can buy a million books on how to train cycling endurance etc, or how a track and field athlete should train, but for some reason training info for sprint cycling is a highly guarded area. Anyone want to suggest why? thanks
Soooo, for a sprinter like myself who can't afford a coach, or have access to other knowledgable/experienced track sprinters (or anyone to train with for that matter), I have to guess my way through my training. I try new things, so go ahead and criticize my methods, don't bother to give a few tips. Remember to keep that highly gaurded knowledge to yourself and your athletes. Tell me I am wrong, but don't suggest a better alternative. Secrets are what keep the successful riders and coaches at the top, not just hard work. I'm sure your athletes are doing a lot better improvement than 20% in under 3 months.
Joea •wrote• Adding strength training to the end of workouts is basically wasting time and adding significantly to the possibility of injury and overtraining.
Nothing like throwing up weight on already fatigued muscles................
??? I know many elite coaches who have their athletes do weights after a sprint session. Carlie Francis did this with Ben Johnson.
Chainsnapper •wrote• That's funny, because after yesterday's 2hr sprint workout (where I did personal best power for peak, 5s and 10s) I came home did 2x15 full squats, followed by some jumping, then I did max deadlift singles (where I pulled 30lbs more than my previous best), I then did some more jumps for vertical height, and surprise surprise, I reached a new best height.
That's good, but does sound a lot of volume. 15 rep squats?
•Quote• But maybe my improvement was inspite of my bad training methods, perhaps I could have done even better had I did the correct training (which, I have realized is only possible by hiring a coach, because obviously there is next to zero info out there on how a sprint cyclist should train) I can buy a million books on how to train cycling endurance etc, or how a track and field athlete should train, but for some reason training info for sprint cycling is a highly guarded area. Anyone want to suggest why? thanks
Sprinters are highly aggressive and ego driven types who carefully guard their hard earned secrets.
I sat in on some coaching course run by Gary West and learnt a lot about the old Aussie programme (Neiwand, Hill etc). A few sprinters have set up a training squad for sprinters here in Christchurch and are basing their training on the new Aussie methods (Bayley, Meares etc). Apparently a lot of very high intensity weights and sprinting, very little aerobic and no upper body work. Ask some questions here, I am keen to get some sprint discussions going and am sure others here are curious as well.
•Quote• Soooo, for a sprinter like myself who can't afford a coach, or have access to other knowledgable/experienced track sprinters (or anyone to train with for that matter), I have to guess my way through my training. I try new things, so go ahead and criticize my methods, don't bother to give a few tips.
I do charge for coaching and if guys in the US make a full time living from it then that's their info and you have to pay, but then I follow the approach one of my exercise physiologist consultants: "yeah sure I charge but if I learn something new then you don't pay".
•Quote• Remember to keep that highly guarded knowledge to yourself and your athletes. Tell me I am wrong, but don't suggest a better alternative. Secrets are what keep the successful riders and coaches at the top, not just hard work. I'm sure your athletes are doing a lot better improvement than 20% in under 3 months.
Sounds a little bitter. It is sport and there has to be a winner and a loser. You can't blame people for wanting to keep an advantage. Your right that these secrets probably contribute very little to their performance but if they believe it's an advantage it very likely is.
I am now curious myself as to what cards they are keeping close to their chests. To me a lot of sprinting is having several riders of similar ability so you get a group culture going on the bike and in the gym.
Hamish - you are the guy who posted awhile back that weight training was a waste of time, right? If so, what made you change your mind (please take this as a true question - not trying to be confrontational!).
But, you have to realize some history on Chainsnapper....one, he posted awhile back about some ridiculously high power outputs......power outputs that basically would have had him smoking the cat V and cat IV T-Town field........but I dont think he ever came......second, he's not a sprinter, he's a road racer....so he says.......
I guess, the point I want to make by this post is that JoeA's comments need to be taken in context.......I'd wager chainsnapper would be doing a million times better in a match sprint if he had just gone to T-Town on Saturday all summer rather then waste time in the gym.
And finally, chainsnapper, what you pay for with a coach is not secrets per say, but a consistent (hopefully anyways) strategy.....for me at least, mixing and matching different stuff I read here and on the internet doesnt seem to work, its the whole program together that works......you should see how much people pay per hour for a personal trainer........
Whipper-snapper, I mean chainsnapper, come on out to the D20 championships and show us what ya got in dem legs........
Elite coaches I can understand about strength training after certain workouts, but it's not prescribed very often and only during certain times in the season. As a regular practice with novices, it's not the best thing to do.
As for suggestions on what to do, keep expiramenting............you will eventually figure out what works for you, but don't get pissed because coaches who are trying to make a living through coaching don't give out their training secrets for free. I (and countless other coaches) have paid a lot of money in education, coaching, competing, and countless hours of continual education to just give it away for free.
This isn't road cycling..........................
Maybe you should make an investment in getting to the track and emersing yourself in the scene. That's a good place to start getting tips and basic information. If it's too far to drive, you're not that serious. Ask the dozens of people who drive over 200 miles one way to the track to race.
Two tips for free...............I'm giving away the house today!!!!
•Quote• That's funny, because after yesterday's 2hr sprint workout (where I did personal best power for peak, 5s and 10s) I came home did 2x15 full squats, followed by some jumping, then I did max deadlift singles (where I pulled 30lbs more than my previous best), I then did some more jumps for vertical height, and surprise surprise, I reached a new best height.
Seriously though, you need to be careful.....you are pretty young right (early 20's).....sure would suck to blow out a knee or a disc and then not be able to cycle period....I knew an elite Tandam sprinter from the 80's....Chris something or other, whom I met rollerblading, his back was seriously messed up and he had to have operations and was racked with pain....
You work out at home right? Big mistake, go to a gym (preferablly one with powerlifters), learn technique from others. I learned alot about squating, deadlifts from a collegiate powerlifter - some skinny kid that couldnt of been taller then 5'1 and 150 lbs that could lift about a million pounds it seemed - so much that the bodybuilders were in awe. I learned proper clean-n-press technique from some high-school football kid at the gym. Moreover, if you ask, people are happy to check your back is straight, knees aren't wobbling, etc.... And guess what, last winter I would go to the gym after my saturday group ride, and it was there that a personal trainer actually came over to me and told me that I was scaring him when I was squating because my knees were wobbling so much from being tired (no b.s. this actually happened and these posts reminded me of that). Yes, I was lifting heavy weight, but I was asking for a blown knee.........
I'm curious, what if you go down and cant stand back up? Your at home right? If you've never lifted so much weight that you cant lift the last squat then your probably not going down far enough nor lifting enough weight (if your in that phase of weight training - remember it should be periodisidized...whatever the hell that word is coaches use). IMHO weight training at home simply doesnt bring results (at least not for me). Ya gotta get in there where the big boys are so it can rub off on ya.
Did you go to T-town or Kissena and race? Did you try out for elite nationals? Did you do any of the sprinting events at Kissena? What about D20, gonna do them........doing these, even if you suck, is what is going to make you not suck and be world class, not weights in your basement...dont go complaining about secrets if you havent been doing it by just jumping in feet first.......there my 2 cents.
•Quote• I can buy a million books on how to train cycling endurance etc, or how a track and field athlete should train, but for some reason training info for sprint cycling is a highly guarded area. Anyone want to suggest why? thanks
$$$, how many magazine articles or books you going to sell devoted to sprinting tactics? Sprinters are too small a minority....
•Quote•
I'm sure your athletes are doing a lot better improvement than 20% in under 3 months.
Well, we shall see, I do know that I went from about 200lbs to 165, and that I went from not being able to keep up with the field to being able to consistently finish in the first 5 or so and upgrade to 4. The kilo wont be a good gauge, as I did a 1:26 last year...... ....which will not be repeated this year.
I like the "power" weight movements too for the overall good feeling they give me for a couple of days. If you do 'em right, your body feels electrified and you feel like you can kick anybody's butt. - Do 'em wrong though ---- well ----
Clean and jerks are the ultimate exercise for me for that reason, but squats and stiff legged deadlifts(for hamstrings) rule for the track.
The cleans, although fun and a great exercise for anyone when done right, are most beneficial to a football player -- ie, a short , explosive movement with the legs followed by a upper torso jerk and arm extension. Sounds just what an defensive lineman needs to blast off , push past a guard and rip someone's head off.
But oh, don't get me started about the poor Sooners.
Joea •wrote• Adding strength training to the end of workouts is basically wasting time and adding significantly to the possibility of injury and overtraining.
Nothing like throwing up weight on already fatigued muscles................
??? I know many elite coaches who have their athletes do weights after a sprint session. Carlie Francis did this with Ben Johnson.
Chainsnapper •wrote• That's funny, because after yesterday's 2hr sprint workout (where I did personal best power for peak, 5s and 10s) I came home did 2x15 full squats, followed by some jumping, then I did max deadlift singles (where I pulled 30lbs more than my previous best), I then did some more jumps for vertical height, and surprise surprise, I reached a new best height.
That's good, but does sound a lot of volume. 15 rep squats?
•Quote• But maybe my improvement was inspite of my bad training methods, perhaps I could have done even better had I did the correct training (which, I have realized is only possible by hiring a coach, because obviously there is next to zero info out there on how a sprint cyclist should train) I can buy a million books on how to train cycling endurance etc, or how a track and field athlete should train, but for some reason training info for sprint cycling is a highly guarded area. Anyone want to suggest why? thanks
Sprinters are highly aggressive and ego driven types who carefully guard their hard earned secrets.
I sat in on some coaching course run by Gary West and learnt a lot about the old Aussie programme (Neiwand, Hill etc). A few sprinters have set up a training squad for sprinters here in Christchurch and are basing their training on the new Aussie methods (Bayley, Meares etc). Apparently a lot of very high intensity weights and sprinting, very little aerobic and no upper body work. Ask some questions here, I am keen to get some sprint discussions going and am sure others here are curious as well.
•Quote• Soooo, for a sprinter like myself who can't afford a coach, or have access to other knowledgable/experienced track sprinters (or anyone to train with for that matter), I have to guess my way through my training. I try new things, so go ahead and criticize my methods, don't bother to give a few tips.
I do charge for coaching and if guys in the US make a full time living from it then that's their info and you have to pay, but then I follow the approach one of my exercise physiologist consultants: "yeah sure I charge but if I learn something new then you don't pay".
•Quote• Remember to keep that highly guarded knowledge to yourself and your athletes. Tell me I am wrong, but don't suggest a better alternative. Secrets are what keep the successful riders and coaches at the top, not just hard work. I'm sure your athletes are doing a lot better improvement than 20% in under 3 months.
Sounds a little bitter. It is sport and there has to be a winner and a loser. You can't blame people for wanting to keep an advantage. Your right that these secrets probably contribute very little to their performance but if they believe it's an advantage it very likely is.
I am now curious myself as to what cards they are keeping close to their chests. To me a lot of sprinting is having several riders of similar ability so you get a group culture going on the bike and in the gym.
What do you think?
Hamish Ferguson
I was doing the 15 rep squats just to give myself a break from the low rep squats I was doing lately. Just to mix things up.
I'm not saying that coaches should be giving away their secrets for free, but it seems that everything is so hidden, even basic training methods sometimes.
I think getting a group of riders together to workout in a team effort is a great idea, and would likely produce the best results. I wish I had that oppurtunity now. I can't even get a few roadies around here to sprint with me.
•Quote• That's funny, because after yesterday's 2hr sprint workout (where I did personal best power for peak, 5s and 10s) I came home did 2x15 full squats, followed by some jumping, then I did max deadlift singles (where I pulled 30lbs more than my previous best), I then did some more jumps for vertical height, and surprise surprise, I reached a new best height.
Seriously though, you need to be careful.....you are pretty young right (early 20's).....sure would suck to blow out a knee or a disc and then not be able to cycle period....I knew an elite Tandam sprinter from the 80's....Chris something or other, whom I met rollerblading, his back was seriously messed up and he had to have operations and was racked with pain....
You work out at home right? Big mistake, go to a gym (preferablly one with powerlifters), learn technique from others. I learned alot about squating, deadlifts from a collegiate powerlifter - some skinny kid that couldnt of been taller then 5'1 and 150 lbs that could lift about a million pounds it seemed - so much that the bodybuilders were in awe. I learned proper clean-n-press technique from some high-school football kid at the gym. Moreover, if you ask, people are happy to check your back is straight, knees aren't wobbling, etc.... And guess what, last winter I would go to the gym after my saturday group ride, and it was there that a personal trainer actually came over to me and told me that I was scaring him when I was squating because my knees were wobbling so much from being tired (no b.s. this actually happened and these posts reminded me of that). Yes, I was lifting heavy weight, but I was asking for a blown knee.........
I'm curious, what if you go down and cant stand back up? Your at home right? If you've never lifted so much weight that you cant lift the last squat then your probably not going down far enough nor lifting enough weight (if your in that phase of weight training - remember it should be periodisidized...whatever the hell that word is coaches use). IMHO weight training at home simply doesnt bring results (at least not for me). Ya gotta get in there where the big boys are so it can rub off on ya.
Did you go to T-town or Kissena and race? Did you try out for elite nationals? Did you do any of the sprinting events at Kissena? What about D20, gonna do them........doing these, even if you suck, is what is going to make you not suck and be world class, not weights in your basement...dont go complaining about secrets if you havent been doing it by just jumping in feet first.......there my 2 cents.
•Quote• I can buy a million books on how to train cycling endurance etc, or how a track and field athlete should train, but for some reason training info for sprint cycling is a highly guarded area. Anyone want to suggest why? thanks
$$$, how many magazine articles or books you going to sell devoted to sprinting tactics? Sprinters are too small a minority....
•Quote•
I'm sure your athletes are doing a lot better improvement than 20% in under 3 months.
Well, we shall see, I do know that I went from about 200lbs to 165, and that I went from not being able to keep up with the field to being able to consistently finish in the first 5 or so and upgrade to 4. The kilo wont be a good gauge, as I did a 1:26 last year...... ....which will not be repeated this year.
I am 20 yrs old. I do most my lifting at home because it's not practical to lift at my gym 20 minutes away by car. I want to be able to switch between riding and the gym quickly.
As far as squats with heavy weight, I am modest with my weight, and always rack the weight a couple reps before failure. Even with heavy weight, I am on the safe side and don't put 100% of my ability's weight on.
I wish there was a quality gym around, with knowledgable lifters, but I rarely ever see squats or deads at the gym anyways. (done properly)
I have searched for better places to lift, but can't find anything other than the typical body builder type, or soccer mom gym. there's no such thing as a gym devoted to functional/sports performance around here (that I know of. central CT)
I am trying the olympic lifts, but having a hard time. I guess I am not flexible enough to get under the bar quickly. I tend to be a slow learner when it comes to many things. Wish I could go somewhere to learn them.
What's D20? I haven't gotten to the track this year. Kissena was out of the question because I have work during weeknights. T-town is 4hrs, I could have done it, but it was also hard because of my work schedule. I work till 1am every night. racing on sat was at noon. how's that going to work?
Are there any more events left? I think the season is over now.
Chainsnapper •wrote•
I think getting a group of riders together to workout in a team effort is a great idea, and would likely produce the best results. I wish I had that oppurtunity now. I can't even get a few roadies around here to sprint with me.
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