[Zdravo]

Kiwi Coach, do you feel this applies to sprint specialists as well? This is a question. Not arguing.

[KiwiCoach]

I'm not arguing either. I encourage evidence based debate.

I have assessed the power files from competition in the sprint cyclists I work with to determine the event demands.

We can all spin some cool yarns. I work with a 16 year old who rode 10.77 on Moscow and just set a NZ Kilo record of 1:03.644. 1:06 this event last year, 1:05.0 at NZ Champs in Jan, 1:04.1 at Jnr Worlds just to establish that I know a little about performance improvement as well

[Joseph]

Tallboy •wrote•
I also rumbled them once doing starts on the track using screw on freewheels- their theory being that free wheels are harder to start on, so when abroad without road bikes they'd use their track bikes with bmx freewheels for starts practise. The problem was the sprinters kept stripping the freewheels to bits (hence the practise at manchester before they travelled to test a new version)

No way any of those guys can do starts on a road bike!

What possible explanation could there be for the BMX freewheels being harder to start on?

[Jonnycerious]

@ Hamish and Steve. First off I will not debate you at all. Seems to me you both have valid pioints.

I have seen the exact same results as Steve and I have some endurance guys just making fools of their peers with a strength and power based program. I see big gains in max speed and overall speed when I get an endurance rider and increase his strength and mainly max power on the bike. This power seems to be widely distributed even into his threshold increasing. From what I have seen for studies that say strength has no effect on cycling is poor. The strength plans they use are so far off its pathetic. The volume they use is also ridiculous. Its about balance when you add strength in. The other thing all these studies skip is applying strength to the bike. They all lift with pathic programs and apply nothing. Of course you wont get results. Say what you will about pedal force but a modern strength program will make a rider faster even if the weights are just stimulus they have their place.

I know of a few coaches local to me who pedal that 20 minute power and no weights all or no strength at all. My riders eat them alive. They just blame genetics. So sprinters all just come to me or do we build them?

Now before you loose your mind Hamish there is also the counter side of this. The sprinters obsessed with weights. To me at some point its starts to become counterproductive. The mid range part of the sprint and top end do not seem to be addressed much in the gym. Too much of a strength based system and you become less supple. So the riders over trained in the gym really see great benifit from blocks of all bike power and strength work. I recorded some of my highest peak power and highest top speed ever at my home track after a long block of no lifting and on bike power. Mostly mid range low end 20-30 second power stuff. Nothing overgeared or heavy. The unloading lets suppleness really improve. So Hamish's pedal force stament is also valid. High force on pedals is much less then max lifting.

This is how it works out for me. Do weights improve 5-second power? Yes, but if you stay too long with that same dynamic it goes stale and can make you slower. I see the most benifit after 8 weeks or so of strength and then moving into all bike power. Then mini blocks throughout just for stimulus. Endurance riders using the same protocol see the great results as well.

If they could do a study with a modern balanced plan you would see strength training and on bike power both being important in building a winning "athlete"

People get obessed with whatever they are doing. Find balance and you will find the champions.

[Zdravo]

I'm not sure if I missed your answer. Did you have this rider lift weights in accordance to noted areas in event demands. Trying to lift specifically.... Or no weights at all. I'm asking only because I have tried many things and would like to know what others are finding. I'm 50/50 at this point.

[eddy]

Joseph •wrote•

Tallboy •wrote•
I also rumbled them once doing starts on the track using screw on freewheels- their theory being that free wheels are harder to start on, so when abroad without road bikes they'd use their track bikes with bmx freewheels for starts practise. The problem was the sprinters kept stripping the freewheels to bits (hence the practise at manchester before they travelled to test a new version)

No way any of those guys can do starts on a road bike!

What possible explanation could there be for the BMX freewheels being harder to start on?

It may be due to the fact that with the freewheel there is no "help" for the leg that is performing the up stroke. you have to focus on the coordination...

[Jonnycerious]

Zdravo •wrote• I'm not sure if I missed your answer. Did you have this rider lift weights in accordance to noted areas in event demands. Trying to lift specifically.... Or no weights at all. I'm asking only because I have tried many things and would like to know what others are finding. I'm 50/50 at this point.

I know this was addressed to Hamish but I'm also 50/50 to a point.

Seems rider with low power see results with improvements in strength and riders with lots of strength background see more benifit from bike power based programs.

Right now seems we are both on the bike side of it. Not saying I wont lift this winter but Ive seen more from the bike this year. Now I have a better idea of how much strength trainining I need to get what I need from it.

The real question remains on how much strength a new athlete needs to be fast. Seems it helps much more in the beginning stages and less on the big end. So how much strength is required to be fast? Some, but not as much as you would think. That's where Steve and Hamish are both correct.

[Zdravo]

Great post. Thanks!

I agree....... That's one reason I'm particularly interested in the 16 year old. I figured he probably doesn't have years of resistance work.

[KiwiCoach]

Jonnycerious •wrote• I have seen the exact same results as Steve and I have some endurance guys just making fools of their peers with a strength and power based program.

Firstly one should never confuse performance with results.

•Quote• I see big gains in max speed and overall speed when I get an endurance rider and increase his strength and mainly max power on the bike.

That would be a meaningful result if all they did was lift weights.

•Quote• This power seems to be widely distributed even into his threshold increasing.

Woah, you were talking speed one second and now power. Is lifting weights the only thing this rider is doing?

•Quote• From what I have seen for studies that say strength has no effect on cycling is poor.

And that is a good reason to do weights because the researchers haven't done a good job of disputing it?

Look at the demands of any cycling event and show me where the strength component is!

•Quote• The other thing all these studies skip is applying strength to the bike. They all lift with pathic programs and apply nothing. Of course you wont get results. Say what you will about pedal force but a modern strength program will make a rider faster even if the weights are just stimulus they have their place.

Nonsense. You have no evidence for any of those statements.

•Quote• I know of a few coaches local to me who pedal that 20 minute power and no weights all or no strength at all. My riders eat them alive. They just blame genetics. So sprinters all just come to me or do we build them?

Why would a Sprint, Kilo or Pursuit cyclist prioritise their 20min power? Do you have any 16 year old kids going sub 1:04 or sub 11sec for 200m? Does that make my programme better? Spare us the "my riders are better than theirs" nonsense!

•Quote• This is how it works out for me. Do weights improve 5-second power? Yes, but if you stay too long with that same dynamic it goes stale and can make you slower. I see the most benifit after 8 weeks or so of strength and then moving into all bike power. Then mini blocks throughout just for stimulus. Endurance riders using the same protocol see the great results as well.

Let me know when they hold a 50m event at World Champs.

•Quote• If they could do a study with a modern balanced plan you would see strength training and on bike power both being important in building a winning "athlete"

People get obessed with whatever they are doing. Find balance and you will find the champions.

Yes they are obsessed

I coach people to improve their performances in bike races. I have the data to show this is working.

Zdravo, no, this rider in particular has not done any weight training. He did play Schoolboy Rugby up until two years ago so there is some general conditioning work. But then I coach other cyclists who have come from Rugby who can't ride a 1:03.644 Kilo so assume that his success has more to do with his focus on riding fast Kilo's and Pursuits.

[Jonnycerious]

KiwiCoach •wrote•

Jonnycerious •wrote• I have seen the exact same results as Steve and I have some endurance guys just making fools of their peers with a strength and power based program.

Firstly one should never confuse performance with results.

•Quote• I see big gains in max speed and overall speed when I get an endurance rider and increase his strength and mainly max power on the bike.

That would be a meaningful result if all they did was lift weights.

•Quote• This power seems to be widely distributed even into his threshold increasing.

Woah, you were talking speed one second and now power. Is lifting weights the only thing this rider is doing?

•Quote• From what I have seen for studies that say strength has no effect on cycling is poor.

And that is a good reason to do weights because the researchers haven't done a good job of disputing it?

Look at the demands of any cycling event and show me where the strength component is!

•Quote• The other thing all these studies skip is applying strength to the bike. They all lift with pathic programs and apply nothing. Of course you wont get results. Say what you will about pedal force but a modern strength program will make a rider faster even if the weights are just stimulus they have their place.

Nonsense. You have no evidence for any of those statements.

•Quote• I know of a few coaches local to me who pedal that 20 minute power and no weights all or no strength at all. My riders eat them alive. They just blame genetics. So sprinters all just come to me or do we build them?

Why would a Sprint, Kilo or Pursuit cyclist prioritise their 20min power? Do you have any 16 year old kids going sub 1:04 or sub 11sec for 200m? Does that make my programme better? Spare us the "my riders are better than theirs" nonsense!

•Quote• This is how it works out for me. Do weights improve 5-second power? Yes, but if you stay too long with that same dynamic it goes stale and can make you slower. I see the most benifit after 8 weeks or so of strength and then moving into all bike power. Then mini blocks throughout just for stimulus. Endurance riders using the same protocol see the great results as well.

Let me know when they hold a 50m event at World Champs.

•Quote• If they could do a study with a modern balanced plan you would see strength training and on bike power both being important in building a winning "athlete"

People get obessed with whatever they are doing. Find balance and you will find the champions.

Yes they are obsessed

I coach people to improve their performances in bike races. I have the data to show this is working.

Zdravo, no, this rider in particular has not done any weight training. He did play Schoolboy Rugby up until two years ago so there is some general conditioning work. But then I coach other cyclists who have come from Rugby who can't ride a 1:03.644 Kilo so assume that his success has more to do with his focus on riding fast Kilo's and Pursuits.

Oh Hamish stop Im not debating you. I mostly agree so no need for this.

And yes I do have a rider doing that. He was at jr Worlds an rode 11.1 and 1.06 at 16. Had he not done L'abitibi 2 weeks before he would have easily been very close to your rider but its hard to make a jr in the US only focus on track. I have another one brewing too who really seems to only care about the track. I think he will break the US jr record for 15 years old next year. He will lift weights but it will be mostly on the bike and not just 5-second power.

I do agree with you 20-second power is really what you need to be a track sprinter but you need 5-second power high to have good 20 second.

Anyway good day to you.

[Zdravo]

Hamish! About how many kilos is this rider?

One of my issues with weights, is associated weight gain. For 5 sec power it's largely power/weight ratio. Light riders don't need as much power, BUT on the other side an already larger rider, who is a weight training veteran, can gain faster if they lose weight (when possible) than
Chase more strength in the gym........ To explain why I'm asking.

[KiwiCoach]

Jonnycerious •wrote• I do agree with you 20-second power is really what you need to be a track sprinter but you need 5-second power high to have good 20 second.

Not really. An increase in Wingate peak power does not make for better 30sec average power.

At New Zealand Elite Omnium Champs we saw several sub 1:05 Kilos with slower than 20sec standing laps. Including a 1:04.8 with a 21.5 standing lap.

11.1 in the Sprint on Moscow?

[KiwiCoach]

Zdravo •wrote• Hamish! About how many kilos is this rider?

One of my issues with weights, is associated weight gain. For 5 sec power it's largely power/weight ratio. Light riders don't need as much power, BUT on the other side an already larger rider, who is a weight training veteran, can gain faster if they lose weight (when possible) than
Chase more strength in the gym........ To explain why I'm asking.

72kg. 175cm tall.

He is not strong by any means but relative to the Kilo and Pursuit he is fricking powerful.

But then his coach knows it's an aerobic sport (damn it)!

[Zdravo]

I would guess he is 21 W/Kg. Maybe more. I'm struggling to determine how to tackle the athlete who is around 19 W/Kg and heavy. Not fat however. A betweener as I call it. Definitely could improve 250 split but could also improve 250-750 split as much. I'm open to general suggestions. I'm not sure how to attack this scenario. My gut tells me fitness and aerobic, but a 20-21 250split has 1-1.5 seconds in there. As I said I'm 50/50!

[Joseph]

Jonnycerious •wrote• I do agree with you 20-second power is really what you need to be a track sprinter but you need 5-second power high to have good 20 second.

I assume you guys mean 20s power at race-appropriate cadences?

And for 5s power, do you see these in 200's? I'm curious because for the data I have on myself, my 5s peak in a 200 is ~300W down from my isolated "lets see what I can do" 5s peaks. I wonder if this is normal, or if I'm burning myself up in the wind-up, or I'm just executing poorly.