Too Deep for One's Own Good?
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FixedGearFever - -> Beginners Help
 Too Deep for One's Own Good? Author: GrowStronger,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:53 pm
  
The current wisdom states that there is about a 15 degree carry over in training effect. In other words, if one trains to 90 degrees, the adaptation will include up to 105 degrees.

There is some compelling evidence that squatting or leg pressing DEEP AND HEAVY can contribute to knee injury.

If the above two statements have validity, then what is the point of a55-to-grass squats or leg presses if such extreme angles are not used in typical cycling movements?
  Author: GrowStronger,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:03 pm
  
Addendum.

People argue that the knee is weakest in the 90 degree position and it is therefore safer to go past that angle before beginning the concentric portion.

Can it be argued that one can stop at 75 degrees instead...?
  Author: Issac,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:20 pm
  
Interesting questions to me GS. I asked them to myself and played with the answers.

I don't have time to go into all of what I think about it, not do you and everyone else I suspect. Let me see how short I can do it. opinion-But all is anyway.

In general-Limited ranges = limited results.

It is not in the full squat where damage happens, unless the hamstring hits calf. Far, far more it is the changeover, knees buckling inward, weight on toes, abs not engaged, then the knees go, and then on yahoos main page they put up that squats cause knee problems. Like the onethe had that "smoking causes obesity".

In regards to the abiltiy to load the right muscles, and the ability to keep form in fatigue and changeover (up/down)- 90 is probably the worst for this.

Partial Leg presses for example take so much weight to put enough REAL tension on the muscle, you begin to destroy hips and knees.

Locking a compound movement (squat, bench, press, deadlift) into a plane or straight line (hack, leg press, smith) can do more damage than worrying about ROM and squats. We move in arches and curves, not straight lines. That being said, the squat injuries often come from not working in these curves around 2 major rotations.

The bottom of the squat hits the teardrop(medialis) majorly and the glutes. I had a friend who made a neat observation about this. He said that so and so had "Partial Squat legs" and they did. And what they looked like is no muscle down low (like triathletes legs due to running). Why was that? I have yet to see well developed legs from only partial work.

Perform rock bottoms with 135 one day, for sets of 20 and you will see exactly what carries over (and what does not)

Perofrming too many single joint moves (isolation type) will teach non dynamic motion, make you look big, and have little carry over. There are exceptions.

Extremely deep is not necessary, but past 90 is.

The carryover you speak of happens more like 10 degrees and really what is in play is also tension. Any tension is part of what is necessary to get stronger and You can read about static contaction training where they hold super heavy weights in the mechanically advantage spot (litttle real work). This was a craze for a while.

You have to look at levers and leverage and ROM. High loads are not always where it seems.

The highest load on the knee is at 90 degrees.

Compounds and ISO changes the carryover and benefit. Meaning that 15 degrees you talk of can be true on a wrist curl say, but not so much on a compound.

More examples that can show it is not that simple are- the bottom 15 degrees of a curl not even being biceps.


But partials and statics are of value very much. And weak points and dead spots can be trained that way. You can also ram thru them with the before. So you do it alll. I am big on variety.

If your squatting right, and 95% don't, then I doubt you have to worry about a thing if your not maxxing out with low reps.

Partial step ups destroy my knees (yes correct form) and yet deeper than 90 squat does not.

Paul Anderson, the strongest man of all time, did some interesting things with carryover and overloads worth digging up.

Also much is ego. 500 partial or 300 deep. Which one looks amazing?

If you can use a lighter weight to a greater effect, then it is the way to go. Or another way of saying it, make the exercise harder, not easier, with a given weight. We are not weight lifters, not bodybuilders (ok sometimes), and not powerlifters. We are cyclist factoring in our sport and also the safest ways to get a certain benefit. For cyclist especially this will come from larger ROM. Always exceptions.

I can make just about anyone sore with a light weight and 10 reps. And yet they could maybe bang out 40 regular and not get trashed. Which one?

Its not full range or parital range that is the problem, you do them all actually, it is the form and control.


Hope that helps. I am anti partial for the most part. There is some carryover but no it is far different.
  Author: Issac,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:29 pm
  
oh and at 75 there is no work unless the load is insane.

And if there is work (you just passed your spine- if squatting) or are crushing your feet with leg press.

Thats a lot of danger to avoid danger.
  Author: GrowStronger,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:04 pm
  
Yes, excellent points and observations on your part.

As you know from my recent post on Eccentrics, I'm rehabbing a knee injury and I want to consider every possibility so I do NOT re-injure the knee.

Based on your input as well as things I've learned empirically:

1) I'll avoid the a55-to-grass squats. (I've read the theories that, from the time we were infants, squatting rock bottom is and should be a natural function. Well, IMO, that logic fails miserably once we place a heavy outside load on our backs!)

2) I'll also continue to train the vastus medialis (which is crucial for knee tracking) via TKEs - which places no stress on my knees.

3) I see your point about the hero squats or leg presses in which the shortened range of motion invites dangerously heavy weight. I've seen this first hand. It's something I'll always be watching for on my own lifts.

One way I think I can avoid this on the leg press is to focus on unilateral movements. As you know, if someone can press 1000 pounds, it does not mean he can single press 500; the actual weight is much less. Perhaps this phenomenon can be exploited to avoid dangerously heavy weights? And as a bonus, the unilateral work may transfer better to cycling.

4) Perhaps the confluence of my body structure, my unique history, and that X factor mandates I avoid deep movements (or at least keep that sort of volume very low)?

Last edited by GrowStronger on Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
  Author: GrowStronger,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:10 pm
  
Addendum.

Better yet, perhaps I should stop doing leg presses because, as you stated, it takes away our need to move in arches and curves?

And thus the meat of my leg work should include unilateral squats, romanian deads?
  Author: corimasd,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:55 pm
  
GS,
I can speak from experience with Issac. When I met him I was having a sore right knee. I used to wrap the knee. My depth was not 90 degrees maybe 75 so a cut high. My hand placement was narrow, was on my toes a bit. He in a nice way said that my form was off, hands were too in, the bar was too high etc..

Sorted things out squat full now maybe 100, arms and hands are very wide, back on heals, and no knee problems. Plus the weights are 20-30% higher. So no pain with the higher weights is a good thing.. right!

I know that you have some knee problems but proper technique is a thing to strive for. It is all hip movement when you want to get out of the hole in a deep squat you thrust your hips forward while going up. Just cycling exercises. Like Issac says we are not body builders, power lifters we are cyclists. You would not know that by looking at Issac.. but like he says he is not a cyclist anymore just giving back.

But if you knees can take it would ask Issac about the Big 3 lifts.
Squats
Deadlifts
Zerchers

Killer if you only had a bar, weights and stand those would be my picks for top 3 also.
  Author: Issac,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:57 pm
  
GS- i suspect you are looking for confirmation rather than ideas and other views. I could be wrong.

You have done your research and yes I have read the same probably.
Knee extensions are going to mess you your knee tracking.

Remember we work in dynamic moves naturally. Variety and change are big hitters in development.

If you knee is was shot (I don't know why or remember), and it was from exercise, I would look very closely at what caused it, and not what the doctor says only.

You don't have to use weight or heavy weights on all exercises. A full squat could be Hindu or different stances, iso, and a bunch of other stuff.

If your afraid to do full range, that is probably why you should. If you are protecting it by avoiding it, you are missing the rehab key.

So you work above the injured point heavy, but also below sometimes.
You can work ECC slowly to a safe effect.

If you want to just do 90 or 75 do it.

You have as much info as anyone, and I think at this point it is important to start and not get overly caught up in it- Why? Because there are millions of views and conflicts. So you feel it out, work completely in safe ways, with the goal of eventually developing function. Real function. Developing a small range with tremendous strength and then none in the other part is probably more dangerous than no development. Watch a great leg presser blow thier back out in a squat. The balance of muscles is off.

Avoid explosive, jamming, hitting, changes, and work tension and tight ranges where you don't let off and don't rest and lockout. Constant tension.

I would recommend old Arthur Jones stuff (much was wrong but some real gems on concepts and common sense) and more recently the Westside Barbell articles. They are far beyond and get too advanced, but the concepts are very good and can be made to work. You don't need the experts, do your research, and work your own system. That is the only real way. Otherwise it is just who says what.

Go light, stay out of pain, find paths that avoid twinges, snapovers, shooters, do not ice prior, buy Tommy Kono Knee Bands, get some Jacoblab DMSO, and start easy, and rather than think about how it can go wrong, start looking at what can go right.

Single leg stuff is poor in my opinion and I avoid it like the plague for the most part (a few exceptions). This is Especially true with a hinge joint (knee) that is stabilized by the other leg. You want to instabilize it and add high load? Even bodyweight can be dangous if added wrong. Think about it.

And if you think because we walk with one leg loaded and therefore it is good, then your missing it.

I would say your partials and your single legs are both not what you need.
Good luck and patience. Thats all I got...
  Author: Issac,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:02 pm
  
oh and if you do do leg presses put feet very high, feet straight.
Backrest low. Slow moves, middle of foot loading....


And always flat shoes (others disagree). Skate shoes or even better Chuck Taylors. Clown shoes but perfect (no foam).
  Author: GrowStronger,  PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:31 pm
  
Not looking for validation but I can see why you'd be a little suspicious.

Your viewpoint on single leg stuff is interesting and I'll definitely take that and your other input into consideration.

Thanks very much!
  Author: HotBlack, Location: Atlanta PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:27 am
  
corimasd •wrote• GS,


But if you knees can take it would ask Issac about the Big 3 lifts.
Squats
Deadlifts
Zerchers

Killer if you only had a bar, weights and stand those would be my picks for top 3 also.


Squat
Abdominal*
Deadlift
Row

*more important than deadlift, and almost more important than squat, due to the fact that for both those lifts weak abs will cause breaks in form that can lead to serious injury. This is more important in the deadlift, where the abdominal wall provides pressurization to internal organs, supporting the front of the spine during the lift. THis is also the case in the squat, though to a lesser extent, since the spine is immobile and loaded (almost) vertically during a squat.


Everything else is supplemental.
  Author: depainisgone, Location: idaho usa PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:46 am
  
Abs are indeed the key. They stabilize you during the squat. Try wearing your lifting belt a notch or two loose, and press your abs out hard against it. That way you can tell if you are relaxing the muscles during the lift, and hence becoming unstable. The guys with the biggest waist are the ones that squat the most. They have massive abs that show through their lifting suits even.
As pointed out, read up on how Westside barbell guys train. Lots of good mornings, heavy abs, overall gpp really help.
Also always squat off the box the way they do, sitting back to take the strain off the patellar tendon. Your glutes will get really strong, which really helps out of the saddle accelerating. As pointed out, do a high rep set to see what gets sore, and the next day ride and you can tell if you need the muscles you have worked in the exercise are really what you need to be working. Ever strained an abdominal muscle ane tried to sprint or do a standing start? Instantly you realize their value.
Posterior chain work helps too, such as the reverse hyper, and the glute ham machine done properly. I really doubt you will find either in most gyms though.
  Author: maelstrom,  PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:11 am
  
HotBlack •wrote•
corimasd •wrote• GS,


But if you knees can take it would ask Issac about the Big 3 lifts.
Squats
Deadlifts
Zerchers

Killer if you only had a bar, weights and stand those would be my picks for top 3 also.


Squat
Abdominal*
Deadlift
Row

*more important than deadlift, and almost more important than squat, due to the fact that for both those lifts weak abs will cause breaks in form that can lead to serious injury. This is more important in the deadlift, where the abdominal wall provides pressurization to internal organs, supporting the front of the spine during the lift. THis is also the case in the squat, though to a lesser extent, since the spine is immobile and loaded (almost) vertically during a squat.


Everything else is supplemental.



Agree, especially on the abdominal part. That's why you DON'T use a belt ever. If your mid section is not strong enough to stabilize a certain weight, it's too heavy. You're cheating, are not training effectively and are looking for injury.

I'm also on the 'go deep' side as far as squats are concerned. You won't be able to load as much weight (safer) and are putting less strain on your spine. It's all about control and concentration during efforts. We are not powerlifters. Also, if you look at the current world elite, the times of the ultra big 100+kg sprinters are over. Chris Hoy is a beast among mortals with his 92kg's.

(That's also why I currently do little to no weight room work. I need to bulk down, not up, so it's all on the bike.)
  Author: depainisgone, Location: idaho usa PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:06 pm
  
Everyone who squats any reasonable weight should use a belt. If you don't have a wide powerlifting type one, in a pinch the regular old style will work, just turn it around so the wide part is in front and the buckle is in the back.
I would bet Mr. Hoy uses a belt...probably wraps his knees too.
  Author: jc, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:00 pm
  
Absolutely agree with HB and all on the abs. I would personally squat lighter than I might otherwise with super tight abs [no belt] and a full range - front squattting or zerchers up to 80kgs and then back squat over that. Once the bar gets quite heavy - for me over 120kgs - I will sometimes use a box or bench to make the 90 degree point clear [!] and then use box squats to ensure parallel.

BUT - squats for me are really a warm up / stability exercise - and I never go less then4- 6RM. Actually I usually never go less then 6RM on anything...especially leg press because what's the point?

For the belt - don't personally use it - I just go lighter and more stable - and try to stablise in the gut first in every effort. And although some will disagree - I use olympic shoes - they are unpadded - they prop your heels little - but what people don't tell you is they hold the heel VERY firmly in the cup - and it tracks completely straight - so that there is no lateral "roll" on lifts - very important for stability IMO. Also if the toes point out - so should the knees - the leg is designed to move in a straight plane - and the inward roll of the knees or ankle roll is a very common cause of squatting injury. Most people I see squatting in runners have a pronounced ankle roll under effort as the load increases. Chuck Taylors - as noted - are probably the best choice you can find everywhere.

Deadlifts are IMO the best power exercise, and you get a lot of leg work from them. You can dead heavier than you can squat, and you can really focus on core stability with this lift. It's allways in my mind deadlfting - all the other muscles are fine - but one bad moment relaxing the back [which is from relaxing the tension in the abs] and you're in trouble. People think that riding a bike is all about the legs - but I think it comes from the core out - and the more ways you can strengthen the core - from pilates to weighted leg pulls - the better. Like everyone here says - stable strong lifts with lower weight work - and they also propose less injury.

And for the leg press - I do like the single - I think it works on symmetry and load in ways the double doesn't - but why not do both from time to time. I know that after reallly hitting my single for 2-3 months - it started as much less than half my double and became slightly higher than half the double over that time.

And light power lifts - cleans & snatches. Single arm power snatches are less technical with a great transfer through the mid section - small sets of 3-4 a side. Full oly lifts are super-technical and require extreme flexibilty - so power variations with the lift to a point where the knees are less bent are a great way to built explosion from strength.
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