[bighank99]

There has been some discussion here in the past about how sprinting has changed over the years, and the use of larger gears by the best in the world.

On a slightly different slant to this, I recall seeing our FCV alum Jamie taking a race in Burnaby by going 'long' on his opponent. I don't know what their respective gearing rations were, but basically Jamie just kept cranking it up and the opponent was never able to challenge.

How does someone defend against the 'going long' tactic?

My guess, as a non-racer is that you'd get on their tail as quickly as possible and challenge them to drag you around the track.

What have our experienced sprinters on this forum done is such a situation?

[corimasd]

I think that the best advice will come from 2006, Hot Black, Shark or Issac but her goes.

Practice looking back so you don't get surprised. Be ready to go at the start of the race. My coach Eddie B says going very early or going from the gun works 1 out of 10 times.

Mentally you hope that a guy goes very early and gives it everything from the start so he will fade by the line.

Drafting is 20% so you have the draft, no surprises anymore, and the guy will be fading all on your side. I think that you should stay back a bit because if you get right on his wheel he should give up the big grind. Then use the sling shot at the last min to win.

Going long IE paced sprint starting at 70% then 80% then..... Is hard to come around. You will need to practice the sling shot. If he is a strong kilo rider then maybe best to stay in front of him and do a paced sprint on him. Once he is about to go then you beat him to it. Don't give him all until the home streach. Try to get him on your dead wheel, when he tries to pass you put him on your hip and drag him to the line. He has to go faster and go longer and deal with some minor riding techniques that your have in the sprinters area. See the new coaching area on Fixed Gear.

What to do about a guy like Chris Hoy.. Fast, strong, can take you long and not fade too much. I think that you have to stay ahead of that monster and use surprise on him. But no one in the world at the championships found a way to beat him. A few years ago when he lacked that knee breaking snap on the pedals he could lose. Now he is the best.

The kilo being pulled from the Olympics is the best thing to happen to Hoy.

[Issac]

Since sprinting is Tactics and Physical application all in one (not separate), I will answer this but keep in mind that the training for this is different than just getting fit for going long, or kick. It is being able to, and knowing when.

Ok so your up against a Long Sprinter, we have to assume that the we (other rider) are better at going shorter with more kick than this long guy/girl.

And also let me say that there are many layers to sprinting and the truth is that there is no- If A happens do B, etc.

Also, if the other rider goes long, and also is good at explosive, it is just being outclassed.

But lets say all things equal roughly, the other rider likes to go long, and how do you counter?

First you have to Identify that this rider goes early, and it is not just what you hear.

Long Sprinters usually do what I call a Building Sprint. This is a effective Intermediate style.

The Long sprint is a Top end and Fatigue based sprint, where the pace is usually Building. That means they start early, and the closer it gets to the finish, the faster they go.

What happens is that they can "Put a rider to sleep" and rob you of your Kick because they have tired you out chasing them around.

They go fast enough to discourage you passing (because of long way around, and getting hung up beside them, and because the draft is so nice), Yet they don't go fast enough so that they fade in the end.

So again, the long sprint done fairly well is a Growing Sprint.

If this growing sprint is instead a series of accellerations off of a Building Sprint, your in deep doo doo. This is because these jagged surges (Advanced version) keep you from getting a good Shot, which is the key to beating a long rider.

But if the Long rider just attacks with 2 laps to go all out say, then that is a Stupid Sprint-because it is a free ride.

So lets assume this rider doing the long sprint gets the front, and Rolls it up to speed in the Building Style. This is intermediate and fairly common.

The back rider (US) is often sitting back there wondering the best time to pass.
Do we sit on and hope we can get them late?
Or do we try to climb and attack over the top?
Do we get in front of them and Shut them Down?
The answer is that it depends. And it depends on the speed the front rider is going, how high you are on the track, and how much kick you have and what gear, and on and on.

What is the key- Don't get in that situation. You stay out of it by being in the draft if it is happening, keeping a gap to take a shot with just over a lap to go, getting altitude when it is not going real fast, and making Explosive decisive moves.

But if the front guy/girl wants to go long...yes get right on them. Do not let big gaps develop, and paying attention is the key.

You confirm they like long ahead of time by watching trends. Then you have to know the opposite of what they do, because if you beat them at thier game, often they do the opposite (beginner, intermediate) on the next ride.

You do not want to Drag race a long sprinter Long!

You either pass and get in front, and use surges to Protect, or you sit on and wait for a lull, or late in the game make your pass. I like to keep open for all 3 and when a situation happens, it is done. But if it doesn't happen, or you missed it, you always have the late charge.

Personally I like to pass About a lap out, depending on when I can get by (usually when they do not expect it, which is Not the straights), and you put everything you have into getting past, because that is the race.

Typically long sprinters are not explosive, so you use that.

Also long sprinters often use large gears, so you use that. If you know this rider is a one trick pony, you can gear up to make your late charge, but I prefer to go smaller and jump past at the moment to take the front back.

You want to always have your holder give you a giant shove, and be ready against a long sprinter from the moment you hear -Rollout. If the sprinter attacks and attacks, you don't want a giant gear because it will destroy your legs. You learn this by watching they guy/girl, Even in warmup! Get info. See what they do.

You also want to remember that a long sprinter goes long often, because they fear a peaky explosive sprint. It is a fear based mindset often and you can use this.

So let me bring it back to simple terms-
either get past (not too early and not too late),
weather the storm,
or plan on going thru the Reps.

The general concept of sprinting is the faster it goes, the harder it is to pass.
The longer the guy is going fast in the front, the better chance you have at passing.
The track is banked so use it.
Don't play into the other riders hand. Mess the Play up.
Etc.

Also train to go long, and Train to be Explosive. Set up situations in your Sprint training, and practice getting by and countering moves in general.

[2006]

Issac has given a good asnwer to tactics and training for the race but here is how I perceive sprint races have developed over the years.

I have anwered this somewhere else.

But after attending the Worlds in March and being right down in the thick of things I can see how sprint racing has evolved.

Right out of the blocks 90% of "world class" sprint races take place on 250m indoor Velodromes.

Which begins tactic #1, no winds in any direction to consider.

#2, Has to be the 250m track,
the length of the finishing straight places limitations to coming from behind.

#3 larger gears
enabling the stronger riders to begin the acceleration ( or start of sprint) and continue to accelerate or at least hold the effort to the finish.

If we go back some years and see what the tactics were on a 500m outdoor Velodrome with only a 15kph headwind down the back straight. Unless you caught your opponent in a deep trance and could gap him 4-5 bike lengths holding the same type of effort for 500m was not possible.

Even tracks of 333m and 400m outdoor you would have to factor in weather conditions.

I would give the nod to strong riders like Hoy, Bos, and Bourgain to dominate from front or rear on Velodromes like Moscow which is 333m with fairly steep bankings.

But anyone that rides a 333m with shallower banking like T-Town you know how difficult is to pass out of turn 4. If rider abilities are close to equal.

[retrotrackie]

Don't forget to congratulate the long sprinter when his tactic works. Often the only variable is when they start the windup, and they know how long they can go before "fading".

[bighank99]

I read the wonderful posts with relish, but it will take some re-reading to digest all of the juicy tid-bits. I asked the question naively assuming there would be a simple answer, but I see now how interesting it really gets.

2006, I recall you mentioning once that you pretty well always had a 'plan A' and stuck with it. Do you care to ellaborate, or correct me?

[THOR4LIFE]

If you know the rider is going to take you long, go and take him long! Chances are that if someone kilos you, its because they know you dont have a gob of endurance, but have a strong kick. So if they are going to take you long, take the lead and get some speed into the race off the rail. I can almost promise you the other rider is not going to expect this.

One thing to keep in mind though. Just because he takes you long doesnt mean he's just gonna burry his head and go for the 3 laps. He might swing way up track out of the blue and get in behind you. Trust me, when it happens, it SUCKS. The one thing I have noticed about new sprinters is that once the speed kicks up, the tatics part of their brain goes right out the window. You need to be able to think and go fast at the same time.

And yes, this is all from WAY too much experence of being kiloed

[THOR4LIFE]

If you know the rider is going to take you long, go and take him long! Chances are that if someone kilos you, its because they know you dont have a gob of endurance, but have a strong kick. So if they are going to take you long, take the lead and get some speed into the race off the rail. I can almost promise you the other rider is not going to expect this.

One thing to keep in mind though. Just because he takes you long doesnt mean he's just gonna burry his head and go for the 3 laps. He might swing way up track out of the blue and get in behind you. Trust me, when it happens, it SUCKS. The one thing I have noticed about new sprinters is that once the speed kicks up, the tatics part of their brain goes right out the window. You need to be able to think and go fast at the same time.

And yes, this is all from WAY too much experence of being kiloed

[HotBlack]

I'll intersperse my comments with Isaac's - I'll snip out some of the stuff that doesn't need emphasis or repeating from me, and focus on the stuff that I do want to emphasize or expand on.

First, let me explain - I no longer consider myself to be a sprinter. I'm good at it, but that's the nature of what I *do* train for. I have relatively little tactical sense beyond what is obvious to me, and most of that comes more from mental analysis of the physics of track riding - using banking / draft / surprise / brute force to my advantage.

I'll start off by saying this: If you think that you can be a consistently successful sprinter (at almost any level) with the training mentality that I knew in the 80s (which is still very prevalent) - the "Oh, I'll do some jumps and some 100's and may a 200 or two and hit the gym 3 times this week - and that's all I really need," you are in for a rude awakening.

Issac •wrote• Ok so your up against a Long Sprinter, we have to assume that the we (other rider) are better at going shorter with more kick than this long guy/girl.
Also, if the other rider goes long, and also is good at explosive, it is just being outclassed.

Concur. If you do not at least have better acceleration, you're in for a long 2 or 3 laps.

Issac •wrote• Long Sprinters usually do what I call a Building Sprint. This is a effective Intermediate style. If this growing sprint is instead a series of accellerations off of a Building Sprint, your in deep doo doo. This is because these jagged surges (Advanced version) keep you from getting a good Shot, which is the key to beating a long rider.

That's what I like to do against an unknown rider - it kind of plays to my strengths. I would think that an effective tactic would be to try to achieve a surprise and get up and over into a controlling position. Unfortunately for a "burst" rider, to do that you have to then occupy the lane in front of the long rider (in order to have some sort of control, since you cannot move down on him into the lane any longer), which then limits your options - now YOU are on the front. So timing in doing this, and knowing your abilities are key.

Issac •wrote• But if the Long rider just attacks with 2 laps to go all out say, then that is a Stupid Sprint-because it is a free ride.

Unless he gets a gap, and then you are chasing a long rider for 2 laps. You have the "rabbit" effect going for you, but that's about it. Other than that, you're essentially then drag-racing a long sprinter. Good luck with that.
So don't let a long sprinter achieve surprise.

Issac •wrote• But if the front guy/girl wants to go long...yes get right on them. Do not let big gaps develop, and paying attention is the key.

If you let a gap of more that, say, 3-5 bike lengths develop (something that you can't close instantly if the lead rider attacks, you're meat on his plate.

Issac •wrote• You do not want to Drag race a long sprinter Long!

He will thank you all day long.

Issac •wrote• You either pass and get in front, and use surges to Protect, or you sit on and wait for a lull, or late in the game make your pass. I like to keep open for all 3 and when a situation happens, it is done. But if it doesn't happen, or you missed it, you always have the late charge.

Personally I like to pass About a lap out, depending on when I can get by (usually when they do not expect it, which is Not the straights), and you put everything you have into getting past, because that is the race.

You have to be really careful with this. If he's sandbagged you, and has better acceleration that you think, you could get hung out on his shoulder, then you're drag racing - so if you pass, you are committed.

Old farmer joke: What's the difference between a chicken and a pig? The chicken is dedicated - shows up every day, lays her eggs. The pig is committed.

Once you try to pass, you are committed.

Issac •wrote• Typically long sprinters are not explosive, so you use that.

Also long sprinters often use large gears, so you use that. If you know this rider is a one trick pony, you can gear up to make your late charge, but I prefer to go smaller and jump past at the moment to take the front back.

And some of us a sneaky bastards who never ride anything larger than a 92 except at Nationals...

Issac •wrote• You want to always have your holder give you a giant shove, and be ready against a long sprinter from the moment you hear -Rollout.

There's a YouTube video of the 5-8 final. I'm on the bottom, and Ryan Nelman knows I'm a kilo guy. Watch what his holder does!

Issac •wrote• If the sprinter attacks and attacks, you don't want a giant gear because it will destroy your legs.
You also want to remember that a long sprinter goes long often, because they fear a peaky explosive sprint. It is a fear based mindset often and you can use this.

I love doing jumps! Want to do 6 in 3 laps? Be careful - the long sprinter may be fitter than you, and used to doing a lot of work.

On the psychology side of things, I'll usually leave the first sprint pretty short, so that the opponent has to think about what he's gonna do - can't go short, can't go long...

So if a long sprinter leaves a sprint short, and you're doing best of three, you better invest 100% in winning that sprint.

Issac •wrote• Also train to go long, and Train to be Explosive. Set up situations in your Sprint training, and practice getting by and countering moves in general.

If you're really explosive, and short, and can't go long, remember this famous advice: "You gotta work on what you suck at."

You don't get to be a better bike racer by continually working on what you're good at. You HAVE to go out and do the hard work that no one else (or few others) want to do.

[HotBlack]

THOR4LIFE •wrote• I can almost promise you the other rider is not going to expect this.

We still say "Thank You" when you do it, though.

[2006]

bighank99 •wrote•
2006, I recall you mentioning once that you pretty well always had a 'plan A' and stuck with it. Do you care to ellaborate, or correct me?

Yes, I have continually told the youngsters that before they enter any race they need to have a plan.

When it comes to sprint races before you can even begin to develop a strategy you have to determine, who your opponent is, and what draw you select before the start. Pole, lane 2 or even lane 3.

The time it takes to get from selecting your start position to the line might only be moments, but your mind is quick, plus most good sprinters already have a small repetoire of races to fall back on.

Here is a neat story that happened to me.

Canadian Masters Nat's in 2006. There was no question that I was going to meet Gerrard Robert in the final.

I watched ( something else that I tell all the kids at FCV, pay attention) all of Gerrards races before hand. I noticed that he had one tactic. He liked to pin the opponent to the rail with two to go and basically said to them" now jump passed me if you can".

In our first race he drew position one and did exactly this, pinned me to the rail with two to go. What he failed to realise was because we were high up the banking it was near impossible to watch me over his right shoulder without making the occasional glimpse forward to see where he was going. I also noticed that he did this in sequence with his pedalling stroke.

I simply waited till the very top of turn 4 just before the bell lap and as he looked forward and his pedals were in a straight up and down position I hit him and hit him hard. By the time he could react I was passed him down the banking and into turn one full speed.

For our second heat I noticed that he changed gears between heat 1 and heat 2. I assumed that he went to something slightly larger ( turn out I was right ).

So I gathered all of our Jrs together and said " hey guys, now you are going to learn something about sprint races".
I told them what Gerrard was doing and what his next race tactic was but I think that he forgot. The next ride I have the pole.

So my plan was? I the told the kids how it was to unfold and it did.

I rode the complete race from the pole position and forced poor Mr Robert to come around me on his larger gear, basically he got razored.

Now you can enter into all sorts of sprint races and have to change your tactic, this happens on a regular basis. You can't control your opponents thought pattern and don't forget they want to win just as bad as you do.

But if you get on the line with no plan then you are toast.

[Issac]

Agree with all for the most part. Nice input and depth added- HB.

Just so it is clear, I think a long sprint done properly is probably the most effective type of sprint.

So the question was how to counter that...

There are certain givens, which is that we have to assume the Other guy has some assets atleast who is going against the long rider.

In general there are long riders and explosive. The guys who can do both are really deadly.

As Mr. Singleton said and I think is huge, wind conditions, track shape, and surface all factor in.

That being said, the key is to not get caught going into a longs strengths. Just as a long rider would be better off not going slow against a jumpy type.

It gets more layered from there, but generally the faster the speed, the less tactics matter. And the longer the sprint, the better chance of passing.

Sometime a mindset is the difference. Thinking "I am a short sprinter" or whatever makes it come true and already starts things off wrong. So sometime it is important to throw that junk out and simply say-I fear no man and i will go straight up with anyone. Forget about the other guy and yet be fully aware.

That is different than just attacking and not looking back of course (HBs point is the correct exception).

There are levels of Long Sprinting. The most advanced is to use Kicks off of a sub max Building Sprint. Then you add track and distance to finish, places to Preemptive kick, standing and sitting and on and on.

But general, the long sprint is either a Building, as in Progressive, or a series of attacks. Both I dread, and both were what I got. So the counter is out of respect for the move, not to degrade the superiority of it.

90% of all sprinters (total) dive out of turn 4 and just sprint for home. So beginning sprinting is how to counter this, negate, or not get there. That is step one. It can be at turn 1/2, but the move is still the same.

Then next comes learning how to go from the back with a Shot, and how to go long from the front and do a Building Sprint. These moves are important major first steps.

Everything in sprinting is based on the front or the rear. So you have those variables in 2-ups.

Then you can take the front, or let the rear guy have it early on intentionally. Second level.

Then you can bait and use change of speed- more advanced.

So my piece is to help readers realize that you will face this move. It comes in its different levels of effectiveness, and to simply scratch your head and wonder why the dude/lady seems to hold you off, and yet you never felt like you got to drag race, is to not expand or be a Sprinter.

Don't get in that spot unless you want it. And when racing... ride your race, even if your in the back. Don't counter, do Your things, and this rider is just another factor, but not The Race.

Yes it is bizarre sounding maybe, but I believe a match sprint is almost a solo event in some ways. You are going where you are going- period! and that is the finish line ahead of that person. It doesn't matter what he/she does, your going to be at the line first. That is the plan for me. It is not to beat, it is to be there with the finish, whatever form it takes. Again...not the rider your racing...the finish line and you.

[bighank99]

Yes, good point retrotrackie. They should certainly be congratulated. A good race is a good race, period.

I suspect that sprinters must have to mix their tactics up quite a bit so that they are not too predictable, even if they might already be known as a long or short sprinter.

Can someone remind me of something else? Either Goodie or 2006 once mentioned a statistic regarding winning percentage for the sprinter who can make the first move from up high and get to the lane first (nothing to do with going long in this case). It was quite high, like 80%.

[HotBlack]

bighank99 •wrote• Can someone remind me of something else? Either Goodie or 2006 once mentioned a statistic regarding winning percentage for the sprinter who can make the first move from up high and get to the lane first (nothing to do with going long in this case). It was quite high, like 80%.

I wouldn't concentrate on this too much.

1) It applies at the World level. Probably not so much at the lower levels. Worry about it as you approach that level because

2) Sprinting is physical, but there is also a mental component to it. I don't like people thinking they've already lost because "Statistics show..." while in the middle of a sprint. You CAN defeat yourself mentally before you even finish the race - so don't do it.

[veganjosh]

Please, keep this discussion going!

As someone who's just starting off as a sprinter, there's a daunting amount of tactical knowledge to learn, and I never feel like I even know where to start. These posts have been, I think, the most informative thing I've ever read on sprint tactics.

[2006]

bighank99 •wrote•
Can someone remind me of something else? Either Goodie or 2006 once mentioned a statistic regarding winning percentage for the sprinter who can make the first move from up high and get to the lane first (nothing to do with going long in this case). It was quite high, like 80%.

Once again, I told the youngsters. You will win far more races than you will lose by making the first move.

BUT !! When you make it, you must be 100% commited and don't look back.