[KiwiCoach]

jb1566 •wrote• This has got to be a joke right? What possible benefit would a weight sled coming crashing down on your leg have for speed-strength? Maybe you could get Hammish from down your way to elaborate.

I could maybe agree with the "intention to throw it" mentality....but actually throwing it , well go ahead, its your body...and I could maybe agree with you if your a olympic level athlete....but for the average joe at T-Town or Kissena in the states?

Greg Wilson from Aus actually developed a machine with magnets that would catch the bar so you could throw the bar in bench press, squats or powercleans.

I don't see the problem in doing this. An easy way is to have a outdoor set of barbells and just throw it on grass. As Craig Colduck said you don't do it inside as you run the risk of putting it through a window and scarring pedestrians

Disco has shared his programme with me and he is doing well on it and making gains. I do think it tries to be too specific. I prefer to do one big exercise, try and hit a max lift and go home. 30 min sessions and I do more work on the bike with far shorter recovery periods than Craig suggests in his excellent post.

But that's just me.

HaMish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

[jb1566]

•Quote• Psssst - panch0, you weren't supposed to say that. That way he stays an average Joe...

And your elite?

Okay, since were getting into flamin....

Throwing a sled in the air with weight is a B.S. idea...period.

Use your common sense, sure you can make gains on it, but you can make gains on squats and deadlifts too and not have a couple hundred pounds x whatever force is generated by gravity, crashing down on your joints.

Now, if your doing the sled thing without much weight, then go ahead tinkerbell, go do plyometrics with the 10K "personal best" "runners" you see in the gym doing lunges with 5 lb barbells etc..........

I wont be wasting my time, I'll be doing squats, deadlifts, and the trainer.....


James

[jb1566]

•Quote• Greg Wilson from Aus actually developed a machine with magnets that would catch the bar so you could throw the bar in bench press, squats or powercleans.

Now, I'm assuming you are meaning actually letting the bar/sled leave contact with your body.....that is what these guys are saying unless I'm misreading their posts.

You think throwing it makes one bit of difference other then making the exercise more dangerous? Kind of like the old argument of doing weights fast vs. slow isnt it? Personally, if I owned a gym and I saw a guy throwing the bar in a bench press, squat, or powerclean....I'd give him a couple warnings and then throw his ass out of there due to liability concerns.

This whole argument is just stupid and dangerous. I'd suggest doing squats and deadlifts....the right way....with real weight....is the way for an average joe to get really good.....not something gimmicky like one legged throw the sled and catch it with two feet......

[KiwiCoach]

If you don't understand what we are talking about don't get so upset about all this. You throw the bar otherwise half of your lift is decelerating the bar. By throwing you get power through the range. Havent you ever studied what the Eastern Bloc athletes did in terms of special strength exercises?

As I said use a old set of barbells outside or medicine balls. Sure you can do strength training with conventional weights but to develop power you need to be able to lift fast and why train only part of the range because you have to slow the bar down to catch it at the end. Throw that sucka!

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

[panch0]

JB,

The objective is not to throw the weight but to have an explosive movement (which in turn throws the sled).

Another way you can picture it is by looking at the concentric movement of a clean without the catch... which in turn would have the barbell slam on the floor.

The idea is to develop power. Squats develop your strength. Therefore, by doinf any of the "sled throws", plyometrics or cleans you are gapping the space the strength (squat) leaves behind.

Hot Black... sorry I blew it!

panch0 in hot humid Miami!!

[bijan]

jb1566-
I'm with you man. I only stirred all this up (sorry) because I was a little suprised that someone would be doing that. I agree that a recreational athlete, who most likely is training on their own with some books or info off the internet, should not be attempting advanced lifting like that. Out of curiosity and lack of regard for my personal safety I tried throwing the sled without any weight on it to see what it's like and I think it's a little shifty, and not great for the joints. In theory, it's great and maybe if you're a highly trained athlete with the proper supervision it would be benificial but if you're just having fun and want to be fast I can't see that it would be a great idea. Sorry I got things a little hot.

[panch0]

bijan,

No worries man! You did not stir it up!

And yes you are right... a lot of this stuff is extremely high impact such as the plyometrics! I was raised on a diet of those suckers but now (age 40) I cannot even bare the thought of doing any of that work I use to do 20 years ago. I know there are other guys even older than me that can still do them but I can't no more.

And Yes, perhaps if you are just riding for fun or nursing an old injury, maybe you should not do them or don't need to do them.

I am thinking about trying some clean later in the season but I can no longer catch the barbell. So I am thinking about placing two big pieces of plywood to land the weight on.

panch0

[bijan]

Panch0
Plyo work is great, and as far as increasing your speed you don't have alot of options. I guess after that many years you'd get sick of doing alot of things. The whole leg press thing is just a little out of hand. There just seems to be alot of other ways for your civilian racer to be increasing his muscular speed.

[panch0]

bijan •wrote• There just seems to be alot of other ways for your civilian racer to be increasing his muscular speed.

The best is to ride the bike!! If you wanted to, let's say, get in the best shape you can without being scientifical about it... do the rides that simulate racing. That type of riding will regulate the needs of the red and white muscle fibers to a darned good extent. Therefore; getting as fast as you can and as endurant as you can. Plus all these rides are fun!

panch0

[jb1566]

•Quote• The best is to ride the bike!! If you wanted to, let's say, get in the best shape you can without being scientifical about it... do the rides that simulate racing. That type of riding will regulate the needs of the red and white muscle fibers to a darned good extent. Therefore; getting as fast as you can and as endurant as you can. Plus all these rides are fun!

Okay....now we are getting somewhere

Note that this whole thing started by Bijjan asking if the sled actually left the foot/feet.....my definition of "throwing" is a rapid accelaration without letting contact leave the body....which is gimmicky IMHO, when you could be building real strength or be on the bike. I would venture a guess that most who "throw" the weight are in fact lessing the benefit of weights by doing something akin to bouncing the bar off the chest in a bench-press. Seems to me proper form is hard enough to maintain in a regular old squat, much less, doing something like jumping with a loaded barbell on your back.

Moreover, whether it leaves contact or not, there are ample scientific and antectodal evidence as to the dangers of this type of lifting.....course there's evidence that doing power intervals on the bike are dangerous to the knees.....and that drinking too much coffee is dangerous...oh wait, now its good....and wine causes cancer and is dangerous....err...wait, it is good for you now....(lets just pass legislation and ban it all...) F' it, I'm so hopelessly American.....

Sometimes I just get a little defensive, as I used to lurk the cycling boards and do the stuff prescribed....what a typical US Cat IV forgets....is that its better to focus on meat-n-potatos, there, off my soap box, done wasting bandwidth.

[jb1566]

•Quote• Havent you ever studied what the Eastern Bloc athletes did in terms of special strength exercises?

Sure....its called steroids........

It'll make a man outa ya.......
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,329611,00.html

[KiwiCoach]

jb1566 •wrote•

•Quote• Havent you ever studied what the Eastern Bloc athletes did in terms of special strength exercises?

Sure....its called steroids........

It'll make a man outa ya.......
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,329611,00.html

Of course how silly of me to forget that it's only the Eastern Bloc athletes who took drugs. It's not like anyone else was doing it.

•Quote• Moreover, whether it leaves contact or not, there are ample scientific and antectodal evidence as to the dangers of this type of lifting

Where?

If that is the case then should we not ban any sport that involves the releasing an object for fear of damage to the body. I guess Baseball, Football and Basketball will be first to go.

Your not a HIT disciple are you!

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

[HotBlack]

jb1566 •wrote•

•Quote• Psssst - panch0, you weren't supposed to say that. That way he stays an average Joe...

And your elite?

Umm, yes. And it was a joke. Quit being so touchy.

jb1566 •wrote• Okay, since were getting into flamin....

Wasn't attacking you. I was attacking your ideas.

jb1566 •wrote• Throwing a sled in the air with weight is a B.S. idea...period.

That's YOUR opinion. The opinion of several sports scientists, most notably the AIS S&C coach who posted here, is different.

jb1566 •wrote• Use your common sense, sure you can make gains on it, but you can make gains on squats and deadlifts too and not have a couple hundred pounds x whatever force is generated by gravity, crashing down on your joints.

Because, you know, your joints are static, and unable to move when that weight come CRASHING down on them. Now, let's REALLY use common sense: you're using one leg, so you're doing about half what you normally leg press. Less, actually, because you want to accelerate it a bit. Then you catch it with both legs. It's like doing jump squats (you have done jump squats, right?) with half the weight you normally squat. And it's far, far, far safer than jump squats.

jb1566 •wrote• Now, if your doing the sled thing without much weight, then go ahead tinkerbell, go do plyometrics with the 10K "personal best" "runners" you see in the gym doing lunges with 5 lb barbells etc..........

Nobody said "not much weight," Peter Pan.

jb1566 •wrote• I wont be wasting my time, I'll be doing squats, deadlifts, and the trainer.....


James

That's fine, whatever works!

[jb1566]

Okay, people taking things too seriously here.....

But I still maintain that ballistic sled throwing is not a smart thing for an amatuer racer to be doing.....but thats just me....

And if you saw the lbs I lift, you'd see I have no business calling anyone tinkerbell....

And yes, the Eastern Bloc athletes had a tremendous advantage over the west back in the day regarding steroids......thats in the history books.

[davidm]

Its been a while since I caught up on this thread but just for the record on ballistic single leg presses, if it helps, I max a single leg press at about 250kg depending on leg position on the sled (high or low gives a different action). All our ballistic single leg press weights are then based on a percentage of this max. For instance at the moment we are doing sets of 6 x 60%, 8 x 55%, 10 x 50%, 10 x 45%. I don't recall ever doing more than 60% of max ballistically so no more than 150kg

It was also a year's worth of conditioning doing non-ballistic single leg presses before we even started the ballistic excercises so it's not the sort of thing you would want to leap into unprepared.