[jb1566]

•Quote•
Still, we might get a good discussion going and all find something new.

Agreed. But what I'm interested in, and Chainsnapper is correct on the secrecy of this, is what the big dogs do - besides dope

Do guys like this do weights all year?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/olympics04/index.php?id=kilo/oly2004-cycling-track-ho-36

What about some of the masters like Anton?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/track.php?id=photos/2004/mar04/wcqual/IMG_4564

What about this guy?

http://ida1.physik.uni-siegen.de/menn/sosenka.htm

But, I'm starting to suspect that they, like 99.99999% of the literature periodi-whatever-asize....

BTW, here's some photos of me.... I was suprised by this photo in that my legs appear much more muscular now then when I was lifting (the first photo - although maybe it was just the camera angle.)....(not bragging I still have stick legs)...but, antecdotally I can attest that although my chest and biceps shrank dramatically, my legs seemed to get more muscular even though I quite lifting cold-turkey in March.... but I'm more of an example of getting *into* shape not an elite racer *in* shape, there's a big difference, something dudes - and dudettes - that hang out on this site dont realize....took me getting a coach to realize it...BTW, JoeA on this board...

P.S. ignore the pack on the bike....I forgot to take it off cause I was getting ready at the last second....never claimed I wasnt a Fred

During weight lifting (early march)......

http://races.gdevitry.com/gallery.php?gallery=TT-2-05&view_one=IMG_0463&history=1

or even worse (keep your "hankering for a hunk of cheese comments to yourself")

http://races.gdevitry.com/gallery.php?gallery=TT-2-05&view_one=IMG_0467&history=1


(just last month)......

http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album05&id=laser005&op=modload&name=Photos&file=index&include=view_photo.php

http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album05&id=laser001&op=modload&name=Photos&file=index&include=view_photo.php

[jb1566]

Chainsnapper •wrote•

jb1566 •wrote•
Whipper-snapper, I mean chainsnapper, come on out to the D20 championships and show us what ya got in dem legs........

After some time searching, I found that race, the MABRA championships.

It looks like I will be only able to ride the kilo, no sprints, since I am not a member of there club and live in CT.
The good part is that I will be able to ride my road bike.

kilo it is. now I need to train for it! about 2 weeks to go

Cool, see you there. Remember to get lots of rest, I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure that there is nothing you can do now to prepare for it other then rest and a little light speed work....and maybe ride rollers on your aero-bars for handling....and just come to have fun, I'm sure your going to blow away my fat-ass on the kilo.

[Chainsnapper]

KiwiCoach •wrote• Chainsnapper, how long do you rest in between sprint efforts?

Hamish Ferguson

Usually a 60:1 ratio. If I do a 5 sec jump, recovery 5 minutes.
But sometimes if I do a 20 sec hill sprint, I am soo fried afterwards that it can take me a half hour before I feel 'normal' again. Burning 30 calories in 20 seconds hurts incredibly.

[Chainsnapper]

jb1566 •wrote•

Chainsnapper •wrote•

jb1566 •wrote•
Whipper-snapper, I mean chainsnapper, come on out to the D20 championships and show us what ya got in dem legs........

After some time searching, I found that race, the MABRA championships.

It looks like I will be only able to ride the kilo, no sprints, since I am not a member of there club and live in CT.
The good part is that I will be able to ride my road bike.

kilo it is. now I need to train for it! about 2 weeks to go

Cool, see you there. Remember to get lots of rest, I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure that there is nothing you can do now to prepare for it other then rest and a little light speed work....and maybe ride rollers on your aero-bars for handling....and just come to have fun, I'm sure your going to blow away my fat-ass on the kilo.

I can improve a lot in 2 weeks. I have done next zero training for the kilo this year. The longest sprint I did this year was 30 seconds.
I am heading out today for some race efforts at holding my desired speed.
good luck

[Fasttrack]

Hey Chainsnapper,

Two weeks is pretty short order to prepare for a Kilo. It sounds like you are pretty fast and have a good jump, the place that the Kilo is going to hurt you the most is the last lap. I don't know how much you will be able to improve your physiology to maintain speed on that last lap in two weeks, but you need to do some efforts longer than 30 sec. to experience the fatique that you need to fight through on the last lap. This is my biggest weakness in the Kilo, I am more of a pure sprinter, I fly the first 750m then try to limit my losses. And it hurts like hell!

The area where you can improve the most in two weeks is your start, try to find someone locally that is knowledable about standing starts and practice! You can make up 1-2 sec. just by getting off the line efficiently.

[Scott]

I have a REALLY good article I have been meaning to post! This might inspire me to get it online ASAP! Let me see what I can do!

The start can save you much time!

-fgf

[Chainsnapper]

Fasttrack •wrote• Hey Chainsnapper,

Two weeks is pretty short order to prepare for a Kilo. It sounds like you are pretty fast and have a good jump, the place that the Kilo is going to hurt you the most is the last lap. I don't know how much you will be able to improve your physiology to maintain speed on that last lap in two weeks, but you need to do some efforts longer than 30 sec. to experience the fatique that you need to fight through on the last lap. This is my biggest weakness in the Kilo, I am more of a pure sprinter, I fly the first 750m then try to limit my losses. And it hurts like hell!

The area where you can improve the most in two weeks is your start, try to find someone locally that is knowledable about standing starts and practice! You can make up 1-2 sec. just by getting off the line efficiently.

thanks. yes, I will need to do some long efforts. I do respond quickly to training (usually peak too early), so I can definitely make improvements in 2 weeks.
I'm not even sure if I can race it, I emailed the promoter. It looks like you have to live in the mid-atlantic region. I am in CT.

[jb1566]

Go to the flyer on their web-site http://www.squadracoppi.com and double check it.....

You *can* compete in the individually timed events. You just cant win any of the medals.....

[Chainsnapper]

jb1566 •wrote• Go to the flyer on their web-site http://www.squadracoppi.com and double check it.....

You *can* compete in the individually timed events. You just cant win any of the medals.....

Yeh I read it and just got an email back from Don. He said I can race the kilo and pursuit.

[KiwiCoach]

clogz •wrote•
Please share some info about these methods, I'd really like to hear. Especially how do you mix aerobic training and high intensity weights + sprints? How to divide and spread these excersizes through the season? How about annual mileage versus sprint training time? What kind of mileage, stamina or tougher going?

I haven't had a high involvement with elite sprint programmes. So I have just as much to learn as anyone.

We have always been told that mixing strength and endurance was bad. I am told the Aussies do 3-4 weeks of endurance training a year in their sprint programme. Sort of makes sense as a pure sprinter would have zip aerobic capacity and would probably maximise their aerobic system in such a short period. Whereas a roadie or track endurance rider will take years to maximise theirs. But then we learn that Victoria Pendalton does three hours on the road in the morning and then three hour in the gym or the track in the afternoon.

As for mixing weights and sprints I would think the plan of either one day weights and one day sprints would be an option. Perhaps an other is to do them both on one day and spend 1-2 days recovering and do it again.

Over a season would depend on goals and races. Gary West discussed the different approaches of Gary Neiwand and Jens Fiedler in 1996. Gary did all his training in the gym and very little racing. Jens raced everything. Come Atlanta Neiwand was fast but in a rain delayed event lost focus while Jens just got better and better.

One other factor is the weight of the rider. Surplus body fat is not a good look for a sprinter. If you do a lot of aerobic rides it's easier to keep the body weight down. If aerobic rides are not your thing then the loss is going to have to come from diet.

Hamish Ferguson

[Scott]

KiwiCoach •wrote•
We have always been told that mixing strength and endurance was bad. I am told the Aussies do 3-4 weeks of endurance training a year in their sprint programme. Sort of makes sense as a pure sprinter would have zip aerobic capacity and would probably maximise their aerobic system in such a short period. Whereas a roadie or track endurance rider will take years to maximise theirs. But then we learn that Victoria Pendalton does three hours on the road in the morning and then three hour in the gym or the track in the afternoon.

This greatly differs from what I have seen the Aussies do. I was REALLY suprised how much their spinters did on the road.

Scott

[KiwiCoach]

jb1566 •wrote• Do guys like this do weights all year?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/olympics04/index.php?id=kilo/oly2004-cycling-track-ho-36

What about some of the masters like Anton?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/track.php?id=photos/2004/mar04/wcqual/IMG_4564

I would imagine they do. But then having worked in the gym you meet naturally muscular people who have never lifted weights. These are probably the people that if you had them at 10 and got them BMX racing, track racing at 15 who would have been your next Olympic Champions. Jon Andrews who was 7 X NZ sprint champ and did weights has been away from any exercise for 10 years and still looks in peak condition. Great genetics.

Here is a post I made to another site. Not saying that we should stop weights altogether but lets put some more thought into why we do it....

Although we are seeing things go back to where Kilo riders are winning the sprint again. The Russians used to do this although the Germans always produced several good sprinters and separate Kilo riders.

Fully agree on pacing for the Kilo. I have being doing lab tests using a Kingcycle following Cycling NZ testing protocols and one of the measures is a 1km performance test. Despite research to the contrary the riders who paced themselves did better times than those who went all out.

With regards to the start my point was that we did a lot of 50m - 200m efforts and my guys were the fastest starters there, just no endurance to carry on.

Now we know that Olympic weightlifters perform better over a 30m sprint than T&F 100m sprinters but does this mean that sprinters will benefit more from improving their starts or trying to reduce the drop off in speed that happens over a T&F 100m sprint. I saw a paper that used a Cosmed K4 during a 100m T&F sprint that showed up to 20% of the energy supply was aerobic rather than the 2% we previously thought.

Back on the bike Charlie Walsh did a lot with the Aussie sprinters to teach them how to pace themselves. He timed a 200m sprint and saw a positive split. Second 100m slower than the first. Not good when your opponent is drafting you for the first 100m. He worked on evening out the ride. Or doing what Gary Neiwand did which was to ride tactically till well past turn three and only give 100% in the last 100m.

Neiwand did do a lot of weight training. Gary West the Sprint Coach at the time did point out in 1996 where Neiwand was one of the fastest qualifiers he lost out in the end to Fiedler who had raced the whole year where ever he could and during a rain affected event held his focus over a longer tournament than usual and defended his 1992 title.

So is gym training where we focus on improving the first 1-5 sec of the event going to help us that much when it appears we need to train sprinters to pace themselves better? Over 200m, over 1000m, over a whole tournament? In the sprint they can push the opponent wherever they like on the track till they commit themselves.

Can we also not do more on the bike? The successful sprinting countries (AUS, GBR, FRA and GER) all have great depth and the riders usually train together and race together year round. Sure they all do weights together as well but I would argue it is the work they do on the bike that makes them better sprinters.

I would also argue that the key to developing sprinters is find a kid who looks like all he would need to do is drop 5kg to win a body building comp and can standing jump over 60cm and teach them how to ride the track.

Hamish Ferguson

[KiwiCoach]

Chainsnapper •wrote•

KiwiCoach •wrote• Chainsnapper, how long do you rest in between sprint efforts?

Hamish Ferguson

Usually a 60:1 ratio. If I do a 5 sec jump, recovery 5 minutes.
But sometimes if I do a 20 sec hill sprint, I am soo fried afterwards that it can take me a half hour before I feel 'normal' again. Burning 30 calories in 20 seconds hurts incredibly.

Interesting, your definitely a sprinter. Most roadies can't hurt themselves like that if they had a gun to their heads.

Our new academy of sprinting is working on similar recovery timelines.

What are your thoughts about my post where it mentions Olympic Weightlifters beating 100m sprinters over 30m? I wonder if 5s sprints are overkill and you need to focus more on the 15-30s efforts. Certainly may save you dosh on replacing chains

Hamish Ferguson

[panch0]

Kiwi,

When I ran track (and field) I saw Olympic caliber throwers that were F#@king explosive!! It was amazing to see this 240 lbs guys acting like prima donnas! I remember one of the weight rooms at my Olympic Training Center had a shallow ceiling and one day we were all trying to kick it. Non of the sprinters could but one discus thrower did! I also saw one of these guys get into a fist fight and I was amazed to see how super fast he was! Definitely these guys are fast and explosive... but I would not go as far as to say they are faster in 30m that the actual sprinters. I would say an elite thrower definitely is faster than a common collegiate (university) sprinter but not faster than an elite sprinter.

One thing I have learned over the years is that a good coach must always asks the following question about each one of his athletes: What does he/she need to improve his/her performance?.

And I can almost bet my lifesavers that the answer will be different for each one of the athletes. So... training like the Aussies or the French or the East Germans... may not suit the need of your athelte. I am against copy cat training... but certainly you can see into them to get some ideas because it will definitely will improve the training repertoire. And certainly I don't believe coaching is about finding the right athlete, because I can bet the coach already has a bunch of willing bodies in waiting that need to have their needs met and chances are non of these bodies is "The Chosen One".

Some sprinters need strength but not so much power development or viceversa. Some need to lift a lot some a little. Some need plyometrics some don't. Some need pure speed but others speed resistance etc... In the same fashion I have seen a super strong guy not being able to sprint, I have seen super fast guys who either cannot lift a darn kilo or plain ol' just don't weightlift. I had a mate in college, twice Olympic semifinalist in the 100m... never lifted in his whole life but ran 9.98 secs because he found his needs in plain sprinting.

The answer to the question What does he/she need to improve his/her performance lies in the coach being versatile and flexible to juggle the training repertoire and attend each athletes needs.

panch0 in Miami

[KiwiCoach]

Yeah, without a doubt one does not copy the others and expect success. Many other factors in the equation.

Most sprinters do weights because they have always done weights or because of their attributes have been directed into doing weights. A teacher at school or friends saw their explosiveness and said "dude, get thee to a gym!!!".

Sure each sprinter has different requirements to bring out their top performance. Questions on the table are do they all have to do weights, do they all have to do some aerobic training and the other is how much time do they spend down the track. Do we take these things for granted or is there something we are missing?

Hamish Ferguson