[DrAb]

[quote="KiwiCoach"] As far as leg speed goes, we were able to do 200+ rpm on exercise bikes in the gym. As an endurance rider I could do 220rpm while some sprinters could top 260. Gary West used to drop the chain and could get guys doing over 300rpm!

*** ibelieve they only hit 270 - 280 with no chain. VJ around 78cm.


To ride 10.0 one would need to pedal about 164 rpm on a 92 inch gear. In the Qualifying round riders will use a larger gear than this and will have a lower cadence. Of course not many riders go this fast anyway.
*** Neiwand used a 92.6 to ride 10.2 for 1996 Olympics.


Cheers

[JVance]

DrAb •wrote•
*** Perhaps it is not the muscular system that predisposed to fatigue but the nervous system? If the nervous system is fatigued, then how do you test for such in term sof prevention?

That's a very good point. You can assay the nervous system at the (gross) motor-unit level using electromyography (EMG)...but even EMG is more of an art than a science, and day to day comparisons are largely unreliable especially for surface-mounted EMG (and I wouldn't be volunteering for fine-wire electrodes as an athlete).

[skull]

While training at the elite level, generally you wouldn't expect a rider to make new personal best on a regular basis. When an athlete sets a new PB he is placing a stressor on his neuromuscular system that is new and foreign. One can never be certain how the athlete will respond to this new high stress level. History has shown that when elite athletes do set new pb's that it tends to play havoc on the ability to recover. Often the athlete will be highly motivated at this time and it is critical to force them to back off and allow the nervous system to adapt to this new level of stress.
This may be less critical for the lower level athlete, as they have not yet developed the abililty to stress their systems to the degree a seasoned elite rider may.

[KiwiCoach]

I agree, PBs are a rare thing after 4-5 years of riding. Unless you are training on race wheels. Also at elite level in sprinting good timing is essential. Hand held timing over 200m is pretty dodgy especially if you are breaking it down even further than that.

You can also find riders who are great at PBs in training who fizz out in competition.

Hamish Ferguson

[KiwiCoach]

One thing missing from the Aussie programme is any mention of on the bike strength work. In 97 Gary West had us going up a gradual 8km climb in out big chainrings. In 93 the French National Womens coach showed us a video on the French sprint team training. Lots of heavy weights lifted fast and 1000m efforts in large gears from seated start.

Do people still do overstrength work on the bike?

Hamish Ferguson

[KiwiCoach]

One thing missing from the Aussie programme is any mention of on the bike strength work. In 97 Gary West had us going up a gradual 8km climb in our big chainrings. In 93 the French National Women's coach showed us a video on the French sprint team training. Lots of heavy weights lifted fast and 1000m efforts in large gears from seated start.

Do people still do overstrength work on the bike?

Hamish Ferguson

[KiwiCoach]

There are some good forums on track and field at www.letsrun.com and http://www.charliefranics.com. Let's run for distance and marathon and Charlie for sprinting.

Looked a bit at Peter Coe's multi tier plan of training. Based on several levels of training based on physiological parameters an athlete will train two levels up and two levels down around the level that corresponds with their goal event pace.

ATP.
1sec, 250-350% of velocity at max oxygen uptake (vV02), Maximal, ATP the energy source, maximum CNS involvement, Clean and Jerk, Snatch, Reaction to the gun in T&F or to an opponent in a match sprint.

ATP-PC
1-8sec, 175-250% of vV02, Near maximal, ATP and Creatine Phosphate as energy source, near maximal CNS involvement, Powerlifting, First 100m of match sprint.

Anaerobic Power
8-45sec, 125-175% of vV02, Glycogen main source of energy through pure anaerobic process, high fatigue (hydrogen atoms or inorganic phosphates???), high CNS involvement, a long match sprint, 500m TT, Keirin, Kilo???.

Anaerobic Capacity
45-300sec, 105-125% of vV02, Glycogen main energy source with a mix of aerobic and anaerobic supply, moderate to high fatigue, Kilo???, 2000m to 4000m Pursuit.

Max Aerobic Uptake
180sec-10min, 100% of vV02, Glycogen main energy source higher percent aerobic supply than anaerobic, moderate fatigue, Short road TT, Last 5% of road race.

Anaerobic threshold
10min to 90min, 85-95% of vV02, Glycogen main energy source, predominately aerobic supply, moderate fatigue, 40km TT, last 25% of road race, long climb.

Aerobic threshold
90min to 3 hours, 70-80% of vV02, Glycogen and fat as energy sources, low fatigue (if carb stores high start or if eating during ride), Road Race.

Below Aerobic Threshold
3 hours plus, less than 70% vV02, Fat as main energy source, very low fatigue, Long Road Race or Ultra Endurance Racing.

Theory being that a sprinter will race around the anaerobic power level and two up are the ATP-PC and ATP levels and two down are anaerobic capacity and vV02 levels. A pursuiter would race in the anaerobic capacity level and do ATP-PC, Anaerobic Power, Max Aerobic and Anaerobic Threshold.

Now David Coe had his Athletes training all 5 levels all year round. Certainly worked for Seb and a few others. However being a Kiwi I am a big Lydiard fan and would point to the German Team Pursuit in 2000 who raced the road till 8 days out from Sydney and did the sum total of 6km at WR pace in training (3 sessions of 2 X 2000m at 4:00 4km pace) who were the first team to break 4min! Or Peter Snell who followed a Marathon Programme till the final week in 1964 to win the 800m and 1500m Olympic Gold. No overspeed training at all.

Lydiard never had pure sprinters doing large mileages and Charlie Francis kept his sprinters so sharp that they were never less than 5% away from PB pace all year round.

Hamish Ferguson

[panch0]

KiwiCoach •wrote• Do people still do overstrength work on the bike?

Hmmm! I don't have too much experience in this department but I wanted to mention the following:

A training session that works wonders for me is doing 1/2 miles intervals on big gears such as 53x15, 53x14 (flat road). Here in Miami I see a lot of people turning a 53x11 real slow but I disagree with their method. Since they never move it fast, their muscles shut down when they hit a high cadence with a big gear. They simply can't pedal it!

By pedaling a 53x14 (or maybe even a bit bigger) at a high cadence, you develop more power (power= speedxweight) that is super specific to cycling. Perhaps more so that weightlifting. In my case, it works wonders!

I must say that I think this session works great for me because I am a 60% white and 40% red fibers combination. Yeap... I know I am not a "pure" sprinter! So that type of high but endurant effort fits my natural talent very nicely.

I think in the case of somebody who has a higher white fiber count... they would be better suited and developed by sticking to weightlifting.

panch0

[KiwiCoach]

I think it comes down to reasons for doing such efforts. Is pedalling at 50-60 rpm uphill actually building strength (someone with a SRM could jump in right now!) or just training slow twitch fibres to work at slow speeds. Sort of the other end of the spectrum to my arguments against overspeed training (no answers yet on power output behind the bike).

Yeah I think 400m sprints in a 53X14 to develop power makes a lot more sense. Notable that Arthur Lydiard started to reduce the amount of steep hill running that was a part of a strength phase and many Lydiard followers now omit this phase.

One of the local guns has had to sit out our road season after overgear training left him with muscular damage.

Hamish Ferguson

[WarrenG]

KiwiCoach •wrote• One thing missing from the Aussie programme is any mention of on the bike strength work.
Hamish Ferguson

He mentioned riding up hills in a big gear-something I do too. Standing starts and all those 5-10 second sprints are strength too-depending on how a person likes to define "strength". I do lots of uphill sprints in my own training, mainly because I'm not able to be at a track just for training.

At masters worlds last week the American sprinters had a slight edge over the Aussies, but when it came to beer drinking, The Aussies could not be matched.

-Warren

[KiwiCoach]

That was for the endurance squad. No mention of using it for sprinters. Let alone using big gears on the track.

Hamish Ferguson

[PeterB]

WarrenG •wrote•
At masters worlds last week the American sprinters had a slight edge over the Aussies, but when it came to beer drinking, The Aussies could not be matched.
-Warren

Having fun fishing ?? Ok I'll bite. We only had 4 sprinter types there last week. Apart from Jim who is on the learning curve the other three (myself, Dave W, and Julie) only came behind a US rider once (womens TT). Dave had daylight to the best US rider in the 200 & 500. Although we are in different divisions Al went 0.9 quicker than me in the 750 but I went 0.4 quicker over 200.
We didn't drink that much beer.
I don't think national comparisons are appropriate in the masters context as unlike elite national squads we masters have jobs and train independently without coaches.

[WarrenG]

Peter-

In America we have a saying, "Tongue in Cheek" (TIC). It means, not being serious, a bit sarcastic, teasing, with a bit of humor.

And, don't masters racers from all countries have jobs, families, and other obligations, or is that just something unique to Australians?

-Warren

[PeterB]

WarrenG •wrote• In America we have a saying, "Tongue in Cheek" (TIC). It means, not being serious, a bit sarcastic, teasing, with a bit of humor.
-Warren

Ok so I took it the wrong way. In Australia we have a great love of sarcasm - it's just that we never expect it from someone in the U.S. Did you go to college overseas ?

[WarrenG]

PeterB •wrote•

WarrenG •wrote• In America we have a saying, "Tongue in Cheek" (TIC). It means, not being serious, a bit sarcastic, teasing, with a bit of humor.
-Warren

Ok so I took it the wrong way. In Australia we have a great love of sarcasm - it's just that we never expect it from someone in the U.S. Did you go to college overseas ?

College here, but fortunately I have some Australian friends who have influenced me.

And it did seem like the Aussies were consuming at least their share of beer during the final night party at the Quality Hotel. Then again, it was mostly the well-fed, local Brits playing strip, spin the bottle...no one wants to see that.

-Warren