FixedGearFever Forums-viewtopic-weights before sprints

Fieldsprinter · Cat 3 Joined: Dec 25, 2003 Posts: 227

Wow, is this the longest thread ever?
No time to read all of it, and as I'm not a sprinter it's not much up my alley.
However, I do know that a grad student/bike racer at Midwestern State University (Wichita Falls, TX) is conducting his thesis on just this question (weights before sprints).
So, you might query him, or just wait for his study to get published.

Plyometrically yours,
~S

HotBlack · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:11 am Post subject:

Norseman •wrote• Greetings All,

Have fun
Lift heavy
Ride fast
Eat cake.

Cheers

Probably the sinlge best training post (or any post, for that matter) that Ive ever seen on any cycling site.

davidm / Norseman - can we have some specificty on the technique on the lifts, esp the one-legged squats - is this done is a Smith machine, or with free weights?

WarrenG · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:24 am Post subject:

HotBlack •wrote•

Norseman •wrote• Greetings All,

Have fun
Lift heavy
Ride fast
Eat cake.

Cheers

Probably the sinlge best training post (or any post, for that matter) that Ive ever seen on any cycling site.

davidm / Norseman - can we have some specificty on the technique on the lifts, esp the one-legged squats - is this done is a Smith machine, or with free weights?

Back when I was still doing weight training I'd hold a dumbell (0-45 pounds)with the same hand as the leg I was using for the one-legged squat. My opposite hand was usually holding on to a door frame or something similar, just in case I lost my balance. One of the things I liked about single-leg squats is that you can go to failure or very near to it without compromising your safety.

Single-leg squats don't do as much for your trunk stabilizers as a regular squat, but (mat) pilates is very good for that.

-Warren

davidm · Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:13 pm Post subject:

•Quote• davidm / Norseman - can we have some specificty on the technique on the lifts, esp the one-legged squats - is this done is a Smith machine, or with free weights?

I'm no expert but i'll try to explain what we do. We do front & back single leg squats using free weights on a squat rack, although I'm pretty sure you could do them in a Smith machine as well. We occasionally do ballistic single leg squats and we use the Smith machine for those. As far as technique goes, the leg not doing the work is stabilised on a bench or stand (approx. 400-500mm high) placed behind you by resting the top of the foot on it. When going into the squat the aim is to get the upper section of the weight bearing leg to horizontal.

Depending on the weight, we do one leg, have a minute or so break then swap and do the other one.

It took a while to build up the stability in the lower leg to maintain balance whilst doing the SL squat - I only started off doing 35-40kg - I'm now doing over 100kg.

Also having good shoes helps with stability - I started using running shoes but the EVA foam in the soles had too much give in them and the weight bearing foot was rocking about all over the place. I then switched to a hard sole, flat indoor soccer shoe, which was a marked improvement but eventually lashed out on a wooden soled weightlifting shoe and they are the best - no give in the sole, flat and stable.

HotBlack · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:21 am Post subject:

•Quote• I'm no expert but i'll try to explain what we do.

Expert enough. Thanks bunches!

dg1 · Cat 6 Joined: Mar 09, 2004 Posts: 8

A little off topic but a training question none the less. This is SRM track data-average data 200M from the 200m line to the s/f line- so 200M while on the clock and not including wind up-(not race wheels- dia = 26.26)
Suppose in an 84(47/15) one can avg. 835 watts/avg. 36.5 mph/avg 150rpm but in a 99(48/13) the same individual can avg. 933watts/37.8mph/avg 133rpm - which is almost .5 sec diff in 200 time-
What is the limiting factor?... other than the obvious.. POWER! But power...more power at high rpm(smaller gear) or more power in biggger gear? or both?
Thanks all-
SRM data geek-

skull · Cat 6 Joined: Sep 09, 2005 Posts: 3

dg1,
It's difficult to say if you lack the ability to apply big power at high rpms from the data. The top boys accelerate a 99" gear to a high enough level of speed to average 153 rpms to go 10.1. Your abililty to accelerate this gear to only around 133 rpms doesn't neccesarily represent inability to produce power at high rpms, but rather the inability to produce enough strength/power to accelerate fast enough or long enough to reach a winning speed. More general preparation should be in order to bring your ability to accelerate up to speed before being to concerned with average pwr/speed over the timed portion of the event. Once adequate acceleration is in place the more focus can be placed on lengthening your efforts and maintaining power at high revs. It really doesn't make sense to develop endurance qualities at a speed lower that what is required to win your event. I would suggest developing a profile of the event that you are trying to win at your level. If you are going to win at the elite level, you will need to know what kind of strength/power levels you're going to need to accelerate that race gear (92+)to 150-165 rpms. Once you've accomplished this, then more focus can be placed on neuro-muscular work to improve pedalling efficiency at high wattage/rpm combos. Lastly, you'll need to bring up your bioenergetic qualities to avoid falling off too much at the end of your effort.
Good luck!

panch0 · Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject:

you know what... I am going to give it a try strating tomorrow which is my squating day... we'll see how it goes! I hope I can keep balance.

panch0

dg1 · Cat 6 Joined: Mar 09, 2004 Posts: 8

I totally agree but I'm NOT ever going to be World class or doing 10.1. I'd be happy with 11.3- best yet 11.7. - I'm old! My question is whether to train to put more power out using big gears or more power/acceleration using smaller gear? I agree that if you can't get to the speed required there's no need to work on avg. or speed /end for thte specific event, but avg. is a very accurate way to measure and determine if one is improving. Peak power varies too much-
Thanks

Chainsnapper · Cat 3 Joined: Aug 01, 2004 Posts: 227

Fieldsprinter •wrote• Wow, is this the longest thread ever?

~S

If you do some searching you will see that I have started the two longest topics on this site. The other one is very simular to this one, sprint training and weights.

panch0 · Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:55 pm Post subject:

panch0 •wrote•

you know what... I am going to give it a try strating tomorrow which is my squating day... we'll see how it goes! I hope I can keep balance.

panch0

OK.. I gave it a try yesterday! I substituted my regular 3x8-185# squat regime by the single leg squat which I tried to do as Davidm/Norseman shared with us and I had never done before.

It was hard keeping my balance for the 3 sets. The first I tried out with the bar alone (45#). For the second set I added 10# and another 10# for the third set. It was a good workout and my ass got (still is) sore!

I tried keeping as much as possible a squatting position but I could not ignore how much it felt like a (forward) lunge. The soreness in my ass really reminded me of the lunges effort. I was also very much reminded of Step ups (onto a box) and I can't help to think that any of these exercises may be substituted for each other as long as the joint angles are reasonably well applied to the cycling motion. In general I think it worked great and today I felt great during my cycling. I will continue at least until Xmas with it to see how it affects my cycling since we will have some winter racing during November/December here in South Florida.

If anybody else is trying single leg squat let us know your opinions please!

good night,
panch0

clogz · Cat 6 Joined: Aug 24, 2004 Posts: 24

I've been following this thread and after this Aussie program was posted, I implemented it to my gym program. I've been now doing it since then 2-3 times per week and it has felt absolutely good change.

It's basicly (collected straight from the post)

- deadlift and/or squat (still too weak lower back)
- 1 leg press
- 1 leg squat
- some pull excersise(s)
- abs (maybe with weights)

I'm still struggling with the actual series weights, there should be some sense with those. Now I've only took some weight to give this program a try. Now it's also getting me too sore 1 or 2 days after a session, and I think there should be less work per session in this point of personal development. Trying to keep the weight increasing, but no idea of how successfull it will be.

Biggest change for me was this serie lenght, to keep it under 8 seconds. I was used to do for example squats too slowly. This has also changed the feeling in legs (+etc) after sets and after the whole gym time.

My personal intrests have been more on kilo than on sprint (and everything is quite basic level still, only one year cycling behind now) but let's see how next summer goes. I have a feeling my genetics and intrests support more short distance disciplines.

Mumbo jumbo post but you asked experiences Wink

D1sco · Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject:

I just thought I would put in some input from down here in New Zealand, our top Junior Sprinter did some training with the AIS and Craig Colduck before he headed to the Junior Worlds in August, so we have had some of the information discussed in this post for a few months now.

I have been doing Single Leg Squats, Single Leg Press, and Standing Box Jumps for about the last 10 weeks.

With squats I started out easy with 40-60kg and have slowly raised it to 115-120kg, it all takes time and is not something that can be rushed (I found this out when I was stumbling around with 120kg on my back, standing on one leg, 1/2 fu#$ed)

The standing box jump is a bit of fun, it looks very impressive in the gym and people are always interupting to see what I am training for. I started out on low boxes, 60cm, 80cm and have slowly moved on to bigger boxes and can regularly jump 100cm+, with a personal best of 109cm. Again this is one thing that can be fu#$ed up if your not feeling that fresh. I've smacked my knee on the front of the box a couple of times, and a friend of mine smacked his shin and ended up going to hospital for x-rays and on antibiotics for a bone infection/bruising. I now have a set of soccer shin guards and am looking for some knee pads.

For Single Leg Press again I started out light, but have built this up very quickly. You don't have the same balance problems and likelyhood of injury with leg press as you do with the other exercises. I do this for strength as well as balistically for power. This is one exercise that you can vary your foot position on to make different muscles feel the burn and like the Aussies say it is their "Bread and Butter".

I had only been doing gym sessions about 1 to 1 1/2 hours long with less in them but after reading the Aussie post (about 2 weeks ago) I have increased my workouts to 2 to 2 1/2 hours with more efforts, less reps and more rest. I have noticed big improvements, but you need to make sure you are well rested otherwise you feel like crap and just end up failing.

Good Luck to everyone out there and happy training!

SWoo · Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject:

What is the protocol for the box jumping? Jump off a box to the ground then up as high as possible and repeat? Jump off a box onto ground up to a box repeat?

davidm · Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject:

Box jumping is basically a vertical leap. We've got a series of 'boxes' at 10cm intervals from 10cm up to 120cm - landing area is about 600mm x 600mm. (Sorry about using metric measurements but it is the international standard! Wink

) Stand in front of the box and jump and land on the box, finishing up in a standing position. Getting down is a bit trickier depending on how high you're going, it might be necessary to set up a series of boxes to step down from. A set can be as many as 20 jumps at maximum height. Shin guards are a must! Also we have done them whilst holding a medicine ball out in front - this tends to force you to use more legs as less momentum is gained from swinging your arms.
Same thing can be done on one leg also - otherwise known as a box hop!