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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:18 am Post subject: kilo & science
If we look it pure "scientific" or techical way, what does it take for human to produce x amount of watts for given time? Let's say one rides kilo 1'15", how many watts is needed avg? And then we could calculate the increase of watts when decreasing the time.
And if we end up like n amount ot wattage is needed for 75 seconds, what does it take to produce it? What kind of oxygen intake one must have? What kind of lactic tolerance, other measurable preferences?
Analytic cycling has it's kilo calc, but I think it needs watts to give time, doesn't give them? And there's this avg vs. max watt thing?
If we think about the avg speed issue, it's obvious one must get to speed asap neither than accelerating longer to maybe little bit higher speed.
Is the optimum cadence (avg during whole heat) between 120 and 140?
The power required to ride a 1:15 kilomter will of course vary depending on your mass, aerodynamic drag characteristics, track conditions (esp. rolling resistance), etc. However, provided all the input variables are measured with sufficient accuracy, you can model things out quite well - in fact, Jim Martin has a paper coming out in MSSE that shows exactly that (performed in conjunction with the AIS). As for average vs. maximal power, you really need to hit a high peak to be able to accelerate quickly enough, i.e., at least in the big scheme of things your starting power is actually more important than the overall average.
That covers the physics side of things, at least conceptually. As for the physiological, a fast kilo rider will be characterized by a high neuromuscular power (to be able to start fast enough) and a high anaerobic capacity. Aerobic energy production will cover 40-60% of the energy requirement (depending on who/how fast you are), but is sufficiently secondary to the non-aerobic aspect that you won't find kilo riders to have exceptionally high VO2max values...more in the "good athlete" range (i.e., ~55-65 mL/min/kg).
Joined: Dec 15, 2003 Posts: 2943 Location: Atlanta Home Track:
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:59 pm Post subject:
acoggan •wrote• The power required to ride a 1:15 kilomter will of course vary depending on your mass, aerodynamic drag characteristics, track conditions (esp. rolling resistance), etc. However, provided all the input variables are measured with sufficient accuracy, you can model things out quite well - in fact, Jim Martin has a paper coming out in MSSE that shows exactly that (performed in conjunction with the AIS). As for average vs. maximal power, you really need to hit a high peak to be able to accelerate quickly enough, i.e., at least in the big scheme of things your starting power is actually more important than the overall average.
That covers the physics side of things, at least conceptually. As for the physiological, a fast kilo rider will be characterized by a high neuromuscular power (to be able to start fast enough) and a high anaerobic capacity. Aerobic energy production will cover 40-60% of the energy requirement (depending on who/how fast you are), but is sufficiently secondary to the non-aerobic aspect that you won't find kilo riders to have exceptionally high VO2max values...more in the "good athlete" range (i.e., ~55-65 mL/min/kg).
I was going to say a lot of what Andy had to say, but I'm a lazy bastard, so I figured if I waited long enough, he'd take the bait.
I think there was a lot of value Starting to figure out my weaknesses (still young to this sport).
Are there any suggestions about start up and acceleration versus projected finishing time? If one has for example 1'15" in his focus, does the early phase differ versus rider who has 1'05" in his focus? I mean peak top speed, should it be limited lower in case #1? Still accelerating to over estimated avg speed, but not wasting energy to speed up anymore from i.e. 55 -> 65kmh, and so maintaining higher speed longer due conserved capacity?
With that comes about a dozen sample files from a wide variety of races and training sessions, including a file from a rider doing a kilometer in just over 1 min. Although the rider's weight is not known and they are much faster than the 1:15 you asked about, looking at the profile of their power output should still be enlightening.
Maybe I'm a bit of a luddite here (although I do love all things tech), but I have to ask why everyone gets so involved in power measurements when the goal of kilo riders (or 500m for old guys like me) is time, not power output. If the race was to see who had the most wattage, I could understand, but it's not. It's a race of who can go the prescribed distance in the shortest amount of time.
In my opinion, we should be looking at speed and time numbers, both of which can be easily measured by a stop watch and an onboard speedo. Take time measurements of different distances during workouts, keeping track of improvemts. Use your speedo to measure both max and average speed and set speed goals based on your time goal.
In terms of starts, focusing on start technique on the track, and resistance exercises on both the track and road will get you further than worrying about power output numbers.
Kevin,
I agree with all that you've said. A watch and speedo tells the story better than a powermeter for nearly all track events. The problem for some of us is that the track is relatively far away from home (or it's closed for the winter) so a powermeter provides some useful information about progress and current ability when the controlled environment of a track (or similar) is not handy.
Even when using a powermeter I still have to correlate my power outputs to times and speeds measured on a track (and actual racing) to really know how I'm doing.
kevinworley •wrote• Maybe I'm a bit of a luddite here (although I do love all things tech), but I have to ask why everyone gets so involved in power measurements when the goal of kilo riders (or 500m for old guys like me) is time, not power output. If the race was to see who had the most wattage, I could understand, but it's not. It's a race of who can go the prescribed distance in the shortest amount of time.
Yes, but all else (i.e., aero drag, mass, rolling resistance, path on the track) being equal the time that it takes you to travel 1000 (or 500) m from a standing start is a direct function of how much power you can make when. That's why it is possible to use power data to model performance even in such brief, non-steady-state events with great accuracy...sufficient accuracy, in fact, to even predict the slight oscillations that occur as you bank into/out of the turns.
kevinworley •wrote• In my opinion, we should be looking at speed and time numbers, both of which can be easily measured by a stop watch and an onboard speedo. Take time measurements of different distances during workouts, keeping track of improvemts. Use your speedo to measure both max and average speed and set speed goals based on your time goal.
Now on this point I tend to agree with you, as it is much easier (and much cheaper) to measure time-vs.-distance than it is to measure power. Again, though, the latter is largely a function of the former, so being able to delve deeper into the determinants of performance can at time still provide useful insight that can't be obtained by simply looking at the outcome (i.e., time).
Excellent details, thank you. In the sample file rider seems to peak 2008W if I look it right. Quite an awesome power. Power profile seems to be same type as in analyticcycling.com and in "Characteristics of track cycling" study available elsewhere in FGF.
I know the only thing that matters is ridetime on finish line. But it takes x amount of power to achieve this time, and to produce that power you gotta have some capabilities. It's easier to think that way and forward to training issues, at least for me.
I just got tested and it showed just below 50ml/kg/min oxygen intake, weighting 75 kilos now. Little bit over year ago I was 72kg and got 55ml. So there's job to do with that issue also, although time of year is far from perfect condition. Never done any max power or 30s power tests.
Going to focus aerobic base, anaerobic capacity and pure muscle power before next summer, maybe I get something out of it.
clogz •wrote• Power profile seems to be same type as in analyticcycling.com and in "Characteristics of track cycling" study available elsewhere in FGF.
Can you save me the trouble of digging for this, and point to where I can find it? I assume that this is the review article from Sports Medicine that I have read numerous times, but it would be helpful to be able to point people to it online.
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Starting to figure out my weaknesses (still young to this sport).
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