[AaronT]

•Quote• Why would a Sprint, Kilo or Pursuit cyclist prioritise their 20min power?

For the Pursuiter, why not? I'm asking here, but it seems like the top IP guys are/were guys that have massive engines and still do quite well in road events. With the IP being about 85% aerobic it seems there is a place for improving 20 minute power, although it isn't going to be a main focus. Perhaps that is the confusion.

[Zdravo]

I was trained under the Russian National team pursuit model. By their Phd coaches, who were pursuit ex-olympians for Russia. Although they had me do big road miles, I NEVER did a pursuit interval outside of 10 min. Lots of 10min and 5min structured intervals. I can't tell you the science behind it, but I could rip a 4k. Sucked at longer TT's.

[HotBlack]

KiwiCoach •wrote• I coach people to improve their performances in bike races.

Who doesn't?


[quote[I have the data to show this is working. [/quote]

As do I, but apparently mine is anecdotal. Apparently their results don't count as reliable evidence.

Oh, and

[Jonnycerious]

KiwiCoach •wrote•

Jonnycerious •wrote• I do agree with you 20-second power is really what you need to be a track sprinter but you need 5-second power high to have good 20 second.

Not really. An increase in Wingate peak power does not make for better 30sec average power.

At New Zealand Elite Omnium Champs we saw several sub 1:05 Kilos with slower than 20sec standing laps. Including a 1:04.8 with a 21.5 standing lap.

11.1 in the Sprint on Moscow?

Well here is some data from an athlete I trained this year.
30 second wingate test by his school Ex-phys professor. Jan 2011 max watts 1258, mean watts 850 and this was after a few years on an endurance based system. Nov 2011 max watts 1710, mean watts 1100. 450 watt peak growth and 250 watt mean growth. The professor who tested him January suggested he focus on track and he hired me as a coach. Clearly this has a lot to with natural talent emerging but it was not being exposed with his previous coach. We did some strength & power(gym), bike strength & power, 5-second speed work, plus 20-30 second and kilo work. Went from mid 12 to bottom 11 and Keirin final at Elites. 107 kilo as well. Been working all bike since elites and seeing more big gains. He will be 10.5 and 103-4 kilo by next Elites perhaps faster. That is my data for 5-second and 30 second relationship. Only that have both grown with many aspects of training addressed.

These were omnium Kilos. What's your point? Not saying they are not fast cause they are but how would these guys race in the sprints? No doubt the kilo is endurance related. The endurance guys have been doing them fast forever...

Yes the jr only went 11.1. He was pretty bummed but me not being there with him and with the volume of the stage race he wasnt prepared. Should have really spoke more with Mr Staff before his 200. Rode a relatively small gear for that track and not really understanding how long the turns are he jumped way too early and was at 74k prior to the line. He had a descent 100m but 165 rpms is not something we practice as constant 200m cadence. He actually rode a descent 200m but in the wrong place on the track! If the boy could realize there is more to racing then winning local crits then he could be a world champion but that is all Jrs in the US! No glory in track but were trying to change that.

[KiwiCoach]

AaronT •wrote•

•Quote• Why would a Sprint, Kilo or Pursuit cyclist prioritise their 20min power?

For the Pursuiter, why not? I'm asking here, but it seems like the top IP guys are/were guys that have massive engines and still do quite well in road events. With the IP being about 85% aerobic it seems there is a place for improving 20 minute power, although it isn't going to be a main focus. Perhaps that is the confusion.

Andy Coggan has suggested that FTP will have an influence on IP performance and I would agree. But 2-4km power is the performance priority.

[KiwiCoach]

Zdravo •wrote• I was trained under the Russian National team pursuit model. By their Phd coaches, who were pursuit ex-olympians for Russia. Although they had me do big road miles, I NEVER did a pursuit interval outside of 10 min. Lots of 10min and 5min structured intervals. I can't tell you the science behind it, but I could rip a 4k. Sucked at longer TT's.

That is surprising as most of our top pursuiters are very handy road TT riders.

But I think this goes towards my argument that a high strength reserve will have an effect on speed endurance or high 3-5 min power will have an effect on FTP.

[KiwiCoach]

HotBlack •wrote• As do I, but apparently mine is anecdotal. Apparently their results don't count as reliable evidence.

Oh, and

You can attach all the rolled eye smilies you want but till you discuss real numbers (and having all the data to at least estimate my riders power from each 1000m result in the last 12 months and the power increases from erg and interval sessions) and being able to show that the weight training contributed to the actual result let alone performance it's just your opinion.

[KiwiCoach]

Jonnycerious •wrote• Well here is some data from an athlete I trained this year.
30 second wingate test by his school Ex-phys professor. Jan 2011 max watts 1258, mean watts 850 and this was after a few years on an endurance based system. Nov 2011 max watts 1710, mean watts 1100. 450 watt peak growth and 250 watt mean growth. The professor who tested him January suggested he focus on track and he hired me as a coach. Clearly this has a lot to with natural talent emerging but it was not being exposed with his previous coach. We did some strength & power(gym), bike strength & power, 5-second speed work, plus 20-30 second and kilo work. Went from mid 12 to bottom 11 and Keirin final at Elites. 107 kilo as well. Been working all bike since elites and seeing more big gains. He will be 10.5 and 103-4 kilo by next Elites perhaps faster. That is my data for 5-second and 30 second relationship. Only that have both grown with many aspects of training addressed.

Was he training for Kilo and Sprint prior to Jan 2011?

Terry Gyde can tell the story better but Hayden Godfrey was very average as an U19. 1.10 Kilo on outdoor board track and 3:45 for 3000m based off a very high mileage training programme. After testing Terry had him training specifically for IP and Kilo and within 2 years was riding Kilo at Commonwealth Games and got down to 10.55 flying 200m, 1:02 Kilo and ~4:27 IP on the pathway that saw him eventually become a World Champion.

So no real surprises that someone doing pure endurance becomes a better sprinter from doing sprint training. Real question is from all that training what is actually making the rider go faster and what is just fluff?

[Tapeworm]

So question for those who coach sprinter-types. Ever coached a sprinter minus the weight training? Or known of those that do? Or any study examining this?

[Jonnycerious]

KiwiCoach •wrote•

Jonnycerious •wrote• Well here is some data from an athlete I trained this year.
30 second wingate test by his school Ex-phys professor. Jan 2011 max watts 1258, mean watts 850 and this was after a few years on an endurance based system. Nov 2011 max watts 1710, mean watts 1100. 450 watt peak growth and 250 watt mean growth. The professor who tested him January suggested he focus on track and he hired me as a coach. Clearly this has a lot to with natural talent emerging but it was not being exposed with his previous coach. We did some strength & power(gym), bike strength & power, 5-second speed work, plus 20-30 second and kilo work. Went from mid 12 to bottom 11 and Keirin final at Elites. 107 kilo as well. Been working all bike since elites and seeing more big gains. He will be 10.5 and 103-4 kilo by next Elites perhaps faster. That is my data for 5-second and 30 second relationship. Only that have both grown with many aspects of training addressed.

Was he training for Kilo and Sprint prior to Jan 2011?

Terry Gyde can tell the story better but Hayden Godfrey was very average as an U19. 1.10 Kilo on outdoor board track and 3:45 for 3000m based off a very high mileage training programme. After testing Terry had him training specifically for IP and Kilo and within 2 years was riding Kilo at Commonwealth Games and got down to 10.55 flying 200m, 1:02 Kilo and ~4:27 IP on the pathway that saw him eventually become a World Champion.

So no real surprises that someone doing pure endurance becomes a better sprinter from doing sprint training. Real question is from all that training what is actually making the rider go faster and what is just fluff?

Were doing 6 weeks blocks till next season. Will see what gives the best results and what is fluff. Were also going to do another windgate in a few weeks and another in spring.

Wow you put me and Terry in the same thread

[KiwiCoach]

Tapeworm •wrote• So question for those who coach sprinter-types. Ever coached a sprinter minus the weight training? Or known of those that do? Or any study examining this?

Will Hopkins and Carl Patton did a study that showed a combination of jumping exercises and short erg sprints increased Wingate performance. They couldn't separate what caused the actual improvement but Will's gut feel was the short erg sprints.

The issue most are missing is that most enduros are not strength limited. They will pursuit at around 300-600 watts and even I (the saddest of sad power outputs) can easily attain 600 watts. It's just that I can only hold it for 15-30sec while at this years Tour of Southland up the steep Bluff Hill Hayden Roulston held 517 watts for seven and a half minutes.

For those who understand the force demands of cycling will realise the issue is not how much force a rider can generate it's how long they can sustain it for.

[Zdravo]

The thing about H. Godfrey is, which I think is of upmost importance, is his body posture on the bike. When I saw him ride his athletic posture was beautiful on the bike. His upper back in beautiful extension. Meaning his power transfer from body to bike was very efficient. This whole topic is mute if you can't transfer your gained power into the machine. On this note, is why perhaps when properly done, bike work trumps all, because it preserves this delicate union.

[KiwiCoach]

Jonnycerious •wrote• Were doing 6 weeks blocks till next season. Will see what gives the best results and what is fluff. Were also going to do another windgate in a few weeks and another in spring.

The point was your rider was tested and showed sprint potential despite what sounds like an purely LSD based programme (which isn't how I would train someone for a week long or greater stage race let alone any track event) and then after a block of sprint related training saw an improvement in Wingate Power. This is hardly surprising.

Was the test in Jan the first Wingate Test the guy had done?

I think you sent me some stuff early in the year and I have to admit I started reading it and thought there were too many different training stimuli crammed into a one programme to be able to clearly claim any one thing was making a difference (positive or negative).

[Tapeworm]

KiwiCoach •wrote• ...The issue most are missing is that most enduros are not strength limited...

So that would follow my questions above, how strength limited are sprinters?

[KiwiCoach]

Zdravo •wrote• The thing about H. Godfrey is, which I think is of upmost importance, is his body posture on the bike. When I saw him ride his athletic posture was beautiful on the bike. His upper back in beautiful extension. Meaning his power transfer from body to bike was very efficient. This whole topic is mute if you can't transfer your gained power into the machine. On this note, is why perhaps when properly done, bike work trumps all, because it preserves this delicate union.

Especially the endurance cyclist we have waaay more power than we need. Watched the Pursuit round of the Elite Men's and Women's Omnium and even with SRM feedback and lap times being called very experienced riders are starting way too fast and dying towards the end.

Even in the sprint rounds the faster times showed less drop off in speed between the first 100m and second 100m split showing that even over 200m one can go out too hard.

Hayden was also very tactically astute which combined with his power in the timed events led to his victory in 2008 Omnium. Main thing is if you looked at the kid as an U19 in 1996 you would never have picked he reached the level he did. Kudos to Terry for doing the testing and guiding him towards his true potential.

I have a similarly talented rider who is addicted to the miles who will thrive when he halves his training to allow himself to train specifically for the pursuit. Same way as I see riders who are addicted to the numbers in the gym or peak speed and peak power on the track. A local guy puts out more peak power than Sam Webster but in Oceania flying 200m this morning Sam was 10.1 and this guy was 11.1. The numbers need to relate to the actual performance!